The Flip Side with Kuthula Matshazi
The opposition groups are undermining themselves and setting bad precedents when they promote bad practices amongst their followers and themselves in order to score points against Zanu PF and President Robert Mugabe.
Over the years, we have noticed a disturbing trend whereby the opposition groups try as much as possible not to censure each other when they commit mistakes fearing that doing so would equate to playing into the hands of Zanu PF. Unfortunately, this practice breeds lawlessness and tramples on the democratic values, the very principles the opposition says is determined to deliver to us. More...
29 comments:
Typical. I would think that an educated person such as yourslef would have said something more intelligent. Ncube probably is guilty, he is a man and a human being and like it or not as humans we are driven by certain base needs which include the company of women. Was what he did wrong? Yes, as a man of the cloth who has taken a vow to remain celibate this is a disgrace. At the same time does this have anything to do with politics? No it does not. The MDC should not be talking about this issue, this is a distraction, do I care what Tsivangirai thinks about this issue? No, in fact I really don't wnat to know, this is not a political issue no matter what you say. You should be ashamed for writing this garbage.
Of course, you know I am not ashamed, I am proud of what I wrote. Have you read the latest developments in your opposition that you want to support blindly? I guess you can justify the events and even make them look good. Don't be blind Dave. Wake up to reality!
What matters more? The developments in our country that are caused by the ruling party or the developments within opposition parties that have no real power in our country to affect anything substantial. I have read that the supermarket shelves are bare, I have read that thousands are risking their lives everyday to excape Zimbabwe, even mothers with infants are risking the crocodile infested waters of the Limpopo to escape. I have read that beef has become a luxury item in our country, I have read that mere shopkeepers are being arrested for trying to sell goods at a price above where they purchased them. I hear Mugabe has a custom built 600SL Mercedes while the countries infrastructure lays in ruins, Grace Mugae goes on shopping sprees overseas while we can't even grow enough maize to feed our citizens due to lack of forex for fertilizer. Nothing that the opposition has done to date has plunged our country into greater turmoil than what ZPF has done in only the last month. Zimbabweans just like you, only not lucky enough to get a scholarship in Canada are dying to get to South Africa where they are faced with an unknown future. Did anything that the MDC has ever done cause this phenomena? No!
Your post is particularly evil because it seeks to distract us from the real important issues in Zimbabwe. Every party will have its scandals, in the US I'm sure you recall, Bill Clinton was embroiled in a series of sex scandals but people are smart enough to realize that good governance trumps scandal. You on the other hand are like the republicans who try to use smear tactics to bring people down becuase you have no real issues of substance to speak of.
Do you think that the members of ZPF are squeaky clean? You are the blind one, blinded by the trivial, the salacious and the insignificant.
Does Pius Ncube hold an official position within the MDC? As far as I am aware he does not and yet the basis of your article is that the MDC does not censure its own. My guess is that due to Ncube's opposition to ZPF you have made him the de facto archbishop of the MDC, please correct me if I am wrong.
To go beyond one who merely makes noise into the realm of someone worthy of respect you will have to begin focusing like a laser on those responsible for the ills in Zimbabwe regardless of party. Any coward (you at the moment) can critisize those who are not in power but it takes a real man of integrity to critisize those in power without fear. Unfortunately you have a very long way to go in this regard but hopefully with time you will grow into someone with a modicum of pride in your work.
I will respond tomorrow (Tuesday). But yes as usual your assumptions are fatally flawed. At least somewhere you take pains to clarify.
Dave, why do you spend time and effort to debate with kuthula? Would you debate the pro's and conn's of eating spinach with a 3 year old toddler? Rather report him to the Canadian authorities to get him expelled, so that he can go and eat the dirt created by his Dear Leader Mugger in that heaven of socialism, the Zimbabwe Ruins. Kuthula is an embarrassment for Africa, because he portrays the stereotypical backward, brainless, ridiculous, illogical and primitively aggressive African man, for eternity blaming the West and the white man for Africa’s failures. He is augmenting racism, in the sense that he represents the caricature of black African people in the mind of the world. On the other hand, maybe he should stay in Canada, because his delirious reasoning shows everyone exactly who and what the real problem is in Africa.
I argue back and forth with Kuthula for a few reasons.
1. If anyone reads this from the international community that might make the mistake that many Zimbabweans share these opinions, this would be sad indeed.
2. I am bored for much of my day.
3. Having grown up in Zim it is a topic near and dear to me. I find it hard to believe that Kuthula could truly hold these beliefs. Any Zimbabwean who is not benefitting from ZPF being in power could hold these beliefs.
So Dave you think you represent the "many Zimbabweans". Even if you represent them you views does not make the things that you say right. Yes, you challenge my perspectives and beliefs but that does not make you views correct. Are you not the same guy who said, purpotedly representing "many Zimbabweans" that the economy of Zimbabwe has collapsed and then you also said it will collapse in six months?
The problem with you is that you arguing for the sake of opposing me and not facing facts and reality. Well, if you want to show people that there are other "many Zimbabweans" who have different views, then fine. But that does not make your arguments right. 99% your predictions and assumptions are wrong. They are racist, as I proved, now I know that they are idle just because you have nothing to do and they are downright lies. I have proved you many times that you are a liar.
If I am benefitting from Zanu PF then you are also benefitting from the "many Zimbabweans".
So Dave you play to the international gallery? You are more worried about "international community that might make the mistake that many Zimbabweans share these opinions". You see you are barking the wrong tree. You appeal to the wrong constituencey. What does the peasant say? Or what do other people who do not share your views say? You are pissed that we are also managing to have our voice out. So many times your dirty tricks drowned differing views.No matter what, we are going to articulate our agenda!! You can also articulate yours but we will also do the same!!! But make sure in voicing your opinions you dont misrepresent, speculate and outrightly lie as has been the tradition.
You are angry that we can voice our opinions. For being intolerant of differing voices you will tear your hair apart!!! Its your own fault. I am not the one who made you and your ilk intolerance and mean spirited.
With all due respect Muthuli, your article is rather disturbing in a number of ways. I will delve into the following;
1. your style of writing and arrangement of ideas
2.the content
In your first paragraph, you talk of "opposition groups" that are "setting bad precedents" but you fail to mention those opposition groups in clear and unambiguous terms. The whole body of your story is centred on the MDC. You even fail to mention which MDC faction camp you are referring to. This makes me conclude that you were not really sure of which opposition camps are failing to criticize each other and therefore fall within the so called "self-destruct mode" of your analysis. Your meager and scanty mention of the ANC does not neutralize the issue either. Legally and technically speaking , the ANC is neither an accredited Zimbabwean opposition party nor is it aligned to any Zimbabwean opposition party
Of the approximately 28 paragraphs in your article, about 15 are devoted to Archbishop Ncube saga. Even though you try to be objective in your analysis but looking at both the MDC response and the ZBC-Zanu (pf) handling of the case , your analysis is prejudiced by your inevitable bias. You denounce the media for its handling of the case, I applaud that. I also add that you should have gone an extra mile by denouncing the displaying of pornographic material on national television. You were correct that the media should have waited judicial process to take its course. However , it is my opinion after reading your article that you
DON'T KNOW about the actual MDC position regarding the issue( don't
quote me wrong, i am not MDC!)
The MDC's position was as follows, in simpler terms: We cannot judge whethher NCube was innocent or guilt, that is for the court to judge. But the whole investigation leading to the exposure of the story was the work of the CIO. The timing of the unveiling of the whole saga especially after Ncube's bold appearance on the BBC the previous week denouncing the evil happening in Zim leads one to conclude that the Zim government is
again playing its unpopular tactics
of muzzling critics. This is not something new. Just look at the chain of events relating to the arrest and acquittals of a number of Zimbabwean critics .
This kind of bias leads you to make
an immature conclusion in paragraph
14 of your analysis when you say Ncube "really knows that he committed the alleged acts" Your use of the word 'alleged' in this statement is rather ironic because it shows that the blame has not yet been proven.
Let me conclude by saying that i really respect your grammar and your language, and some of the issues you raise, though minor, present some interesting arguments. I wish you could develop your unguided wisdom to denounce the bad that is happening in the country at
the same time applauding the good that the government has done for the people. I only pray for people who are objective-minded , who can see the good and the bad. I hate blind followers who always say 'yes ' to everything. Such a religious adoption of political ideas can be self-destructive.
We need some more debate.
Please note the following corrections on my previous article today.I refer to you as Muthuli, it should be "Kuthula"
I also refer to the NCA as "ANC"...just typical typing errors....
Hi Building Zimbabwe,
Thanks for your submissions. I will respond tomorrow (Wednesday).
Dave, playing to the international community is not the answer for Zimbabwwe. You are part of the "Slam Zimbabwe" contestant. And you are probably a white minority, former racist, Rhodesian, previously a human rights abuse in Rhodesia and for member of the selous scout. The so-called many Zimbabweans you refer to, are just a batch of red necks. You are clearly not a main stream Zimbabwe
Zvo
Zvo, how cute, you sound like an infant Kuthula junior in training. I am not white. And I never once in any post that I made slam Zimbabwe. Even Kuthula would back me up on that issue. ZPF is not Zimbabwe. I am against what I see as an abuse of power by the ruling party and what I want to see from Kuthula and others like him is a recognition that no leader deserves a free pass.
As for being racist against my own kind I again challenge you to pick through any of my posts to find anything derogatory, make sure you paste it into your post and tell us all where it can be found. If you need an example of something racist simply take a look at baby Zvo's post, plenty of material there.
Kuthula, please represent the facts and not your fanatasies, I never said I represent a majority or any Zimbabweans I merely said that many do not share your views, be they similar to my views or not. As for playing to the international community I think you are extremely naive. Who do you think is listening to your radio broadcast if not those who are in the international community, I guess you like to play to this constituency as well. You are in Canada, and I am in the USA and you think we are not playing to an international community? There are 5 million Zimbabweans outside of Zimbabwe, do you think the international commuity is not aware of us? C'mon.
Not only are you misrepresenting facts but you are beginning to ramble. Whenever you have nothing useful to say you fill your posts with accusations of racism, or you accuse me of lying. Prove it. Give me the quotes. You have never, not even once produceded anything.
I love that you are able to voice your opinions however misguided. I truly find some of the things you come up with quite entertaining.
I have always said that I care nothing for the opposition, they have no power and don't affect the life of everyday people.
Oh and Kuthula, I never claimed that the economy would collapse in 6 months, that was Dell. I said it had already collapsed and I stand by what I said. 80%+ unemployment, heavy governmental interference, hyper inflation, bare shelves, mass migration of citizens equals collapse. It is not even a question of when will it collapse but how much more can it collapse.
Senior police officer dismissed for 'supporting' MDC
By Tichaona Sibanda
31 July 2007
A senior officer with the Zimbabwe Republic Police was last week dismissed
from the force, allegedly after it was discovered she had 'links' with the
MDC. It still remains unclear how she is involved with the opposition party.
There are reports however that this is a message from Police Commissioner
Augustine Chihuri that any MDC sympathisers within the the force would not
be tolerated.
Assistant Commissioner Kudzai Sibusiso Ndawana was practising as a dentist
at Morris Depot training school. She had to be forcibly dragged out of her
official residence at Chikurubi support unit base by fellow armed colleagues
after refusing to leave. Police spokesperson Chief Superintendent Oliver
Mandipaka confirmed Ndawana's dismissal and the subsequent withdrawal of her
housing and vehicle benefits.
Initial reports say Ndawana had resisted vacating the house after an
internal investigation linked her to the MDC. The high ranking officer from
the police medical corps also had her official Peugeot 406 taken away.
Former Assistant Commissioner Jonathan Chawora said it is clear from reports
that the reaction from Chihuri was very heavy handed.
'If it is true they fired her for her links with the MDC then Chihuri and
almost half the police force should be dismissed for being card carrying
members of Zanu (PF),' Chawora said.
According to Chawora, serving police officers are barred from active
politics although they are allowed to vote in any election. This means a
serving officer can privately be a member of a chosen political party but
cannot articulate party views in public.
'Chihuri is on record telling the nation that he was a staunch Zanu (PF)
cadre. Army generals are also on record saying they would never salute a
President without war credentials. This effectively means they are pro-Zanu
(PF), so its clear the laws are being selectively applied in the security
services,' Chawora added.
SW Radio Africa Zimbabwe news
Thanks, kuthula, nice forum to expose Mugabe and Zanu-PF
You are welcome Sibanda. But I am not necessarily focussedon ZPF. My bias (which we all have) is on interogating the ideas of the opposition and making sure that they really know what they are talking about? It seems there are few if any people who are critically looking on THE FLIP SIDE. Focus on ZPF is oversubscribed and shamelessly commercialised.
Dave, now you refuse the things that you said. You even gave me a multiple choice question. You strategy was apparently straddled. On the one side you indeed said that the economy has collapsed on the other you looked at it from our state of discussion and I guess you were hedging your argument that if its not collapsed now then in 6 months it will collapse. But I am inteprating you on the latter maybe you can tell us why you gave me the multiple choice. I guess you know that all the posts are there and I can retrieve it if you want to deny it.
Even if you are not white you still sound racist. You have internalised the racist language. Unconsciously you have become racist. Refer back to our conversation when I put forward reasons why I thought you were racist.
Also, I wanted to ask you who you really are. One time you imply that you are a British, the other time you suggested you were American, the other time you are a Zimbabwean and now you are a Black person.
But knowing your character through your writings I am not surprised. You will clutch onto anything to justify yourself. I could never back you up on anything even something as obvious as the sun because you can turn around and start accussing me of something. besides, I do not believe an inch that you are not white. Tell that to another infant and not infant Kuthula!!
Yes, you dont represent a majority. If I said that I am crazy. Of course many do not share my views I know that. So too do many who do. But of course you will dispute that. Now you are starting to mic things. My radio show is meant for Africans in Canada first and then the rest of the world. CHRY is a community station meant to serve marginalised voices in Toronto. So I conceptualised the programme thus: connect the marginalised voices with issues happening in Africa and globally (as they relate to Africa). The writings on Zimbabwe are specifically meant to interrogate ideas of the opposition to ascertain whether people know what they are talking about.Many times we hear people talk big and yet they have serious confusions in simple and basic understanding. That's how Tsvangirai and his opposition movement lost it. People told us about democracy, speech freedom market economy, etc and yet they scantly knew the full picture about what they were talking about. So I set to interrogate them. Others like you, while you understand these things, you want to bend them and exploit them to entrench your sinister agendas... no wonder why you always talk about articulating a position and benefitting!!!
I pasted the evidence in the previous discussions. Go to a atory in June I think which has 28 postings and you will see the last comment is where I posted you instances of racism.
Dave,
You interest me Dave when you talk about the opposition that has no power. Yes, they will continue not to have power if they are destroying themselves. If you still have the courage to read about events in the two MDCs then you will understand why they do not have the power. Read what Mutambara says about Tsvangirai. And I guess you want to blame the government for the self destruction of the MDC? Dave??
I dont know why you ask me an obvious quest whether Pius has a position in MDC. I do not know why you ask that question because i never even attempted to insinuate anything of that sort.
I think the only evil in my article is that I am trying to make you think straight. the issues I write about are very important. If you think they are not, then that explains why you are in the doldrums politically.These are the foundation issues which we can then build a united Zimbabwe. If you dont understand that or you choose to deliberately ignore it, then there is nothing I can help you with. Maybe like Tsvangirai, it takes you 5 years to understand a simple thing.
You call the Ncube thing a smear? We never smeared anyone. You are back to your lying ways. I only said he should come ot clean because since he has been a champion of accountability, transparency and morality, he should - now that its him - be consistent and practice what he preaches. This is not smear, its called seeking accountability.
I never said there is anyone who is squeaky clean Do you think you or myself are squeky clean?
You did not read my article. That's the proble with you people. You just jump on me when you have just read a phrase or sentence. Show me where I said Pius is an MDC person? OPPOSITION does not equate to MDC Dave? You are confused. Yes, I have corrected you. You are wrong.
Dear BuildingZimbabwe,
I mention the opposition groups. NCA, MDC, and we all know the many groups that have downplayed or covered the bad things done by some in the opposition. I think I am guilty of not mentioning 16. But I mentioned 3 because of space. I used those 3 as an example that I could adequately write about. You dont write about 16 of them or 100. We would have stopped long ago in writing about Tsvangirai's mistakes. So your querry would be: Please Kuthula give us more of the opposition groups.
Yes, I focussed on the MDC but not the entire body of my article.
But why do you say I do not mention whih MDC I am talking about? Did you really read the article. I dont think so because you did not even see that you initially gave me a non existent name. Please read my article and then come to debate from an informed position. I wish I could describe in detail the layout but time forbids me.
I said Kagoro and Mutambara called on the opposition forces to be democratic themselves. You see, you did not read. You are manufacturing things. Usually I do not respond to people who manufacture their own scenario and then set me up to disturb them when they are engaging themselves with themselves.
I did not mention the ANC. I mentioned the NCA I did not say the NCA is an opposition party. Where did I say that?
Yes I devoted many paragraphs to Ncube because it was the main point with which I wanted to demonstrate my point. You see, I am not worried about how the case was handled. That was not my arguments. If you want us to debate that we can. Its not the ZBC only that revealed the pix. Zimdaily and Newzimbabwe had them. Why talk about ZBC only? Well if its your bias, that's ok.
In any case, where do you, democrats and liberals draw the line of exercising the freedom of speech? You are hypcrites. Now I understand why the Americans say that you never trust a liberal because they are snakes. You (liberals) are amazing hypocrites. What do you meant that I do not know the MDC position on the issue? Do you realise that under my byline there is Mutambara's article. Did you read it? Please do. I dont even care about judging Pius. Who am I? I am saying he should judge himself. Tell us the truth as a way of accountability. If you guys think that its ok for him to hide his position and you think it vcan only be brought out by the court so be it. But what I am arguing is that he should be forthcoming in "NO UNCLEAR TERMS" whether he did it or not. I do not want to dwell on the judicial process. That's a different subject. I think we need to be very focussed when we discuss issues. let's not just mix things that do not come together!!
Yes the Zim govt might be trapping Ncube but did he do he or did he not do it? If he did it was he forcemarched to do it? You cant blame ZPF for someone's wayward ways! You see this is the sort of unfortunate reasoning in some opposition elements.
"However, if he really knows that he committed these alleged acts and is a God-fearing man who fears the Ten Commandments and the morals he preaches to others, then he will be doubly hurt when the whole case finally unravels".
You see, you broke my sentence and left out if and in fact changed the whole meaning. You are just a hopeless liar. I am very disappointed in you. I will keep and always refer to this to show what kind of a liar you are.
Thanks for the kind words, but I am using my energy for the bad reasoning that is rampant in many quarters of the opposition. And als trying to stem liars like you who cut and paste things and then give them their own desired meanings.
Shame, you have been exposed. But somethimes I get frustrated because some people throw away a chance of having a good debate. Your approach was encouraging but bias got the better of you. You can't build a sustainable Zimbabwe on lies.
Kuthula
You admitted in your last comment that you focused on the MDC and used Pius Ncube as an example to prove a point. A reader of your article would naturally assume that the two were in some way connected. Why use Pius Ncube as an example if it has nothing to do with the MDC? That was my confusion but since you have clarified by saying that you were using examples unrealted to the MDC I am know clear. Thanks.
Plus I still believe you are using smear tactics, in what nation would you ask an unelected figure to explain their sexual activity and expect to receive an answer. Why are you so interested in Pius Ncube sexual affairs that you want him to admit his private matters? If Ncube were involved in secret dealings with foreigh military forces I would want a full explanation but I do not care what goes on in his sex life.
Kuthula:
You and I are likely to agree in principle that: The fact that ZANU is a failure does not make any opposition a perfect substitute. There is more to qualify them than the mere failure of the currently reigning leaders. However the Pius matter, which I suppose is the impetus to your original post, is of no relevance.
Look Kuthula the moral life of the man is not an issue of state interest and at the moment as a nation we have more pressing issues which should be of priority to every Zimbabwean. With all sincerity Kuthula why would you be interested in knowing whether Pius ever has intercourse or not? Remember the vows which he made were not between him and the nation, but him and the Catholic institute. Hence he can never be accountable to the nation but the institute. Not even to God, for God is the author of sex and has ordained that it be engaged in to replenish and repopulate the planate. It is a very natural and blessed act.
There is absolutely no need for Pius to tell the nation whether he did it or not, after all he is not a national leader but Catholic. Instead as a nation we want to hear in "uncertain" terms how the nation will survive without meal-meal, fuel, soap (both laundry & bath), cooking oil, vaseline, medication in the hospitals, delabitated infrastructure especially in the learning institutions, (By the way if you had not heard, there are some schools in Matabeleland which recorded nil% 'o' level passes, and the causes for that range from hunger, poverty to lack of other learning resources such as stationery, infrastucture & teachers). The list of what we are keen to hear as a nation is endless and who has slept with who at this point is unimportant.
I wonder what it would mean to you if Pius actually did it, but to me it means nothing except that he is normal a MAN like any other man including yourself.
By the way even the reigning leaders have defaulted morally and the reason why we never talk about those is they are not national issues. They have no bearing on our economy, which at the moment is a cause for concern to every Zimbabwean, may be save for you guys who are living in the luxuries of other nation's economies and probably are not looking at the Zimbabwean situation as an issue of survival but a case study at your colleges from an academic perspective for the sake of passing your exams. You can never utter the same if you were in the actual Zimbabwean predicament. I can not define it any better than that it is "total inceneration in a deliberately created inferno", as such I argue, What Pius morally does in the secrecy of the night in his closet, with willing and consenting companions is nothing to publicise nor talk about.
I quote "I dread to imagine what animals we are creating in the current opposition rank should they be given access to national institutions, they are likely to be brutal and vengeful"
I'm yet to know where Pius has ever demonstrated a vengeful spirit and an attitude of brutality.
Dade,
I will come back to your interesting submission. Its interesting because the beacon of freedom yesterday is today the church pastor only. Even if we accept your argument that " Pius made a vow to the church and not the state, we must be worried about the sense of judgement of a prominent voice that has so much influence in political matters. If we do not trust his sense of judgement (for instance that you dont sleep with someone's wife) then we might doubt him if he says, for instance that Zimbabweans should rise against the government. Or that Mugabe must go. So, yes even if I accept 100% your line of argument and condemn mine as flawed (in the article), still this issue of sense of judgement and his public role in public policy matters. You cannot have your cakes and them too!! Pius got into public policy matters voluntarily and became a champion of engaging government and therefore transformed himself from a mere preacher to a publi person involved in public matters. But you can still say that everyone has the right to get into public matters and still not accountable to the public. That's true for the first part but the second part is not true. You can't engage in public policy matters and then expect to remain largely private. That's trying to have your cake and eating it too.
If we can be nice to him, let's say we keep quite about Pius and we all say sorry for writing about him, but put him at the backburners because we can't trust his judgement. He does not know what is right or wrong. Its very difficult to try and argue for Pius unless you state from the onset that you know he is wrong but you are just trying to defend him, which in that case we can then engage you well knowing your position. And you see, yikho okuzakwenza ukuthi iopposition ibe lezigangi kubelokungabi accountable. Pius can be sidelined but still let the agenda continue. But the tragedy of the opposition is that you personalise the struggle and when your hero is killed you are left rudderless. Look at Tsvangirai?
I will respond to other issues later.
Yebo mfowethu ngiyakuzwa:
You know what do not be so sure that he slept with somebody's wife. So far all the issues that have been raised are mere allegations which I suggest should be treated as such. If you have been following the matter, there was one paper just this week which publicised an article where Pius' lawyer raised various issues one of which was that the said woman was never married to the said complainant. Suppose that proves to be true what then shall we say??Secondly mfowethu the gravity of the matter visa vee the other pressing issues ekhaya is what is of major concern to me.
I'll hear from you.
Dadewethu,
I apologise for responding late. I think I fully answered the first part of your question. Then there are other interesting issues that you raise.
You rightly say Zimbabwe has more pressing issues than Pius. That's true but that does not mean when Pius, who has attained national prominence, ironically in dealing with issues of morality and governance, has such allegations surfacing then we just keep quite. Just to see that everyone was seized on the matter. It was not the public media alone that was excited about the story, but the private media as well. The spotlight on Pis did not mean that suddenly Pius was the priority. In fact what the media publishes does not not necessarily mean that that thing has become priority. This might mean that al the headline and main stories that drag days in the media are priorities. So it therefore means that our priority is determined by the media and therefore every day we have a priority?
I must quickly add that I believe these are allegations and nothing more since they have not been proven.
But what I am worried about is Pius's failure to come out open and say something like this: The accuser, the plantiff and the govt. are lying about all this. I DID NOT DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS. What is diffiult with saying this. He has an obligation since he has been a voice of morality in the public. You see Dade, we must not shield people from accountablility just because ZPF will feast on them. You mess up, you mess up. You excel, you excel. Let's be accountable.
We are not asking Pius to tell us who he sleeps with. But its strange when we can allow hypocrites to tell us to be moralistic when they cannot. Bebhde ngale beyekwenza exactly the same thing. How do you take that person serious. This is a guy who has people's eyes and yet you want to selectively judge him? Kacace. Wakwenza kumbe kakwenzanga. It is not for us to force him to confess. Kasitshele.
Pius has never demonstrated a vengeful spirit and brutality. I did not say this or suggest that with regards to Pius. In fact, I mean those intolerant sections of the opposition (opposition viewed as a plurality of different groups and parties opposed to the governemt)that are intolerant of divergent views. You need not go further than go to some websites to see what they say about Mutambara joining the "an ethnic clique of Ndebeles" or Matshazi #&*@...(unprintable). Someone was threatening me that when they get into power they will not hire me (as if I said I want to be hired by anyone). You know quite well the thugs that are there. Even right at the top of the opposition MDC where it is alleged and reports from internatl MDC structures confirmed the violence against anyone who does not subscribe to the politically correct views. So its not a statement directed to Pius but the generality of the opposition. Ubaba uPius kumele acace nje kumbe azithulele, deal with matters and then the finale of his case would put him where he is supposed to be: in the public or private domain where he can enjoy larger freedoms to do anything that he pleases without scrutiny.
Mnewethu
Thank you for your response:Mamela Matshazi:On the issue of priority I am not looking at the media. Sure, the media does not report issues of priority only. The aspect of priority comes into play where state leaders seem to be so eager and determined to rebuke the act in a manner that extremely magnifies it, and choose to remain silent on other important and pressing issues. Ngitsho lasemfeni Matshazi, umongameli efanele aduduze abantu, uyagqabhaza anyikinye ikhanda, abobotheke, exoxa ukuhlobonga kukaNcube kanti lokhu okunye okuqakathekileyo uzakuxoxa nini. The state looks to him for solutions to the problems affecting the nation and when he opens his mouth we all hope to hear a solution to those but nanko ke ekhuluma ngoNcube lezemacansini akhe (whereas lelakhe icansi kalihlanzekanga).
Secondly, I've said it before: If Pius is to be talked about, he should be viewed in totality. Let those issues he has raised and advocated for be addressed as well, for if they aren't then it puts into doubt the motive behind rebuking him over mere allegations. In other words I repeat your own words Matshazi: he should not be judged or viewed selectively. Lithini ngalokhu okunye akuvezileyo ngaphambili? Why look at this incident (which is an allegation for that matter) in isolation? How about the facts he has presented before?
Definately, I would totally agree with you if you say "Ubaba uPius kuhle azithulele" and battle the matter in the courts, And as for state leaders they should address and pay attention to matters which matter to the state.
Concerning these other oppositions, especially MDC and its caricature politics I will not be dragged into speaking about them. Them and I are at variance.
"You personalise the struggle and when your hero is killed you are left rudderless"
Mamela mfowethu, I am not a politician, neither am I an activist nor Piusian. I am an ordinary suffering Zimbabwean. I have no hero so to speak, though I should hasten to say I agree with the concept you are raising here, that battles should not be personalised as it carries many risks one of which you have mentioned. In addition the same person may even abuse the absolute power you will have conferred on him.
I am not in any way shielding Pius from accountability: No, I am simply saying he is not accountable to me. If he slept with someone's wife he should go and give an account to the man in the court. And it is not for the state leaders to influence my opinion about Pius, instead they should give an account of what they have done and continue to do to our economy and society at large.
Finally I wonder what you mean when you say focuss on ZPF is over subscribed and shamelessly commercialised.
I can see u standing in front of your
family library, that's good. I urge you when you read those books not to read them like you are reading Oliver Twist, or Pafunge. Try to read between the lines my brother, it really helps. I have read your response, not just to my article but also to other sensible submissions from fellow Zimbabweans.It appears You don't wanna be swayed from your vicarious position. I respect that, that's what you think. At the same time I beg you again to try to look at both sides of the coin. kuthula, it's not in dispute that the government has its own share of blame in the destruction of the Zim economy and the misery being faced by our brothers and sisters. Why do you always try to hide behind your finger when it comes to facing those issues....the killings , disappearances, torture, huh? Or maybe its just a skeleton in the cupboard! I agree that western-imposed sanctions have aggravated the suffering .. at the same time those sanctions should not be taken as a scapegoat for all the woes that we are facing in the country. Kuthula, try to say the least possible truth that you know.
I hate neither Mugabe nor Zanu PF , I hate their destructive policies on the once vibrant economy in Southern Africa. Tell Mugabe we thank him for the land, the liberation, the nationalism....and we curse him for the corruption, killings, torture and his unending-but-fragile cling to power. If I try to subtract the truth from your lies, you still remain in the negative on the scale
of truth. Shall I call you a devil's advocate, maybe yes, maybe not
Matshazi: Have you seen this one? p://www.thezimbabwestandard.com/viewinfo.cfm?linkid=11&id=7058&siteid=1
Strange twist in Pius Ncube adultery case
By Kholwani Nyathi
BULAWAYO — The $20 billion adultery lawsuit against Archbishop Pius Ncube’s (pictured) has taken a new twist — adultery claims have been dropped.
According to fresh High Court papers seen by The Standard last week, plaintiff Onesimus Sibanda’s lawyer, Munyaradzi Nzarayapenga says he would make an application to amend the original summons at the pre-trial conference or "any time before trial".
The amendment does not contain any adultery claims against Ncube, a fierce critic of the government’s human rights record.
In the original claim, Sibanda, a soldier attached to the National Railways of Zimbabwe, said he wanted $20 billion from the prelate for allegedly having an intimate relationship with his wife, Rosemary.
He said $10 billion was for adultery damages, $5 billion for loss of consortium, and $5 billion for loss of contumelia (loss of comfort).
But in the latest application, Sibanda does not mention damages for adultery and instead wants the figure broken down to $10 billion being loss of consortium and $10 billion for contumelia.
This follows an application by Ncube’s lawyer, Advocate Nicholas Mathonsi, for Sibanda to clarify how the alleged adultery was committed and also to justify how the claims were arrived at.
On Friday, Nzarayapenga said the amendment only sought "to correct mistakes that were made in the summons and declaration. Otherwise the claim remains the same at $20 billion".
Its true that the head of state should be seen to be addressing serious issues. In all fairness he has lamented over the state of the economy and the solutions being undertaken...as late as the opening of the parliament. I would necessarily mean that joking about Pius is bad for a thing to do considering their relationship. Its not like the whole state policy machinery has stopped and all focus is on Pius. That would be an unfair portrayal of events. I guess you might want to acknowledge that the Pius issue has occurred in the midst of the prices war. The government machinery or the president himself sis not stop talking about it or any other important matters and focused solely on Pius. Pius was prominent of course, but not dominant. Maybe for a day or two...which of course was the making of the media. And you agree that what the media highlights prominently is not necessarily the priority. I think the president did not say that it was a priority? Unless I missed that one. Its a pity that the media can choose to frame some news prominently at the expense of more important issues and then it would seem as if we have all stopped doing everything else but talking about Pius.
The discussion of Pius in totality is necessary. I think the context of his criticism is based on the totality of events. It is his past positions on issues that have drawn attention to him. For instance, one could say how could a man who called for this and that...from a high moral ground and suggesting good sense of judgement on his part be caught in such an act(which of course now we still see as allegations)? The only fragmentation that I see in the approach to his present predicament is that it is new. each espisode of Pius has a life of its own. When he called for intervention by foreign forces, that issue was debated as a particular incident, but of course also tied to his past positions to create the "totality" of the man's beliefs. Like wise this incident is being debated as a stand alone issue but also tied to past positions. Those past positions have been extensively debated. The "facts" that he presented before have been considered and in fact the "facts" are the ones that make people question his sense of judgement if this case proves true. His past "facts" stand to compromise him.
While Ncube is not accountable to you unfortunately he is accountable to the nation since he has taken a leading role in articulating the governance of the country. Some people see him as a voice of reason.
People have made money by merely stating that they are fighting for human rights or freedom of speech. People have made money by pretending to be opposing ZPF only to further their monetary interests and not engage in the tasks they pretend to set to involve themselves. See how, at one time donors were pouring out money because people were sprouting from all corners saying ZPF this ZPF that and they got money. The donors have seen through this and are now cutting back. They realised people were out only to make money and not really to engage ZPF.
Its a pity that you think that Pafunge has no lines in between. You think it was just writtten with a shallow mind. I am disappointed in you. My friend there is no word that is just written innocently, including yours and mine.
I wonder what you mean by sensible submissions? I suppose those views that coincide with your wiewpoints are not sensible? Then you are not being sensible yourself. Something can be sensible but then you might still agree to discagree. Its not that if you do not agree then something is not sensible. I think these are the sort of fundamental issues that I set myself on unveiling in Zimbabweans. We want to go to higher ideas when we do not understand very basic things like logic. How can you set yourself trying to understand higher ideas when you have problems with very basic things such as understanding logic or thorough understanding of various ideas that inform our practice?
Of course, I do not want to be swayed from my position until I can have reason to be swayed. I cant be swayed because 1million people say so. If I had been swated that Tsvangirai was good and that his anti-Zimbabwe strategy was good then I would have joined a majority opposition that was wrong on both points. It took 5 years for the opposition to realise that they were wrong, but you might be shocked to see the insults I got when I said this 5 years ago. Now they are coming back to what me and other people have been saying. Trust me, I look at both sides of the coin very, very, very carefully and from a multiperspectival viewpoint. I also have to deal with my bias and be true to myself about the evidence in front of me. I hope you do what you preach to me!
You say "Why do you always try to hide behind your finger when it comes to facing those issues....the killings , disappearances, torture, huh?"
You se, you start distorting things now. Just show me one instance that will support your statement. Many times I see that when people can't pin me down on very particular issues I raise, they resort to such accusations, as you have made. Its so unfortunate. But I would be very happy if you showed me the basis of your statement.
"Kuthula, try to say the least possible truth that you know".
I do say the most truth I know and leave those things that I dont know. Have you ever heard me talk about the bile? Its because I do not know about it! I engage on issues I have informed myself about.
The issue is neither loving nor hating ZPF or Mugabe. Its about FACTS and pragmatism.
But if you talk about clinging to power, you fail to realise that his ZPF supporters (who are in majority) have kept him in power. Dont blame Mugabe, blame democracy that operates the system of majority!! You see, these are the small things that you fail to understand. Your anger will not usually count for anything in a democracy if you are in the minority. You can't wish W. Bush away because he was voted by the majority of Americans. Mugabe was equally voted in by the majority of Zimbabweans. My suggestion is for you in the Diaspora to go back and vote en masse and overwhelm the ZPF support. Don't think that by magic ZPF will be thrown out of power. By whom? How?
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