The interview below by Peta Thornycroft underlines positions of people like me who had correctly identified the MDC as hopeless five years ago. But because people volunteered to be ignorant (or were actually ignorant unknowingly) or chose to be bury their heads in the sand and also chose petty reasoning (like suggesting that anyone who criticises the MDC must be a Zanu PF supporter or CIO), have been thoroughly embarassed by their clueless, flip flopping dictator Morgan Tsvangirai.
SW Radio Africa's Violet Gonda speaks to Peta Thornycroft, a Zimbabwean national and correspondent for various foreign newspapers and radio stations, including the UK’s Daily Telegraph newspaper. In this, the second and last part of the interview, she talks about Zimbabwean politics and the media:
Broadcast November 13, 2007
VIOLET: We welcome journalist Peta Thornycroft on the programme Hot Seat again. Now Peta when we ended the discussion last week we were talking about the turmoil in the MDC. What are your thoughts exactly on what is happening in the MDC right now?
THORNYCROFT: Well, I think one has to really go back to the beginning of the MDC as journalists and look at how we covered the MDC, certainly how I covered it from July 2001. I’m afraid to say I was very neglectful of looking at the MDC. My excuse is that it wasn’t such a big foreign story, it was more of a domestic story - the opposition - but I bitterly regret that I didn’t do more work in finding out about the various fault-lines in the MDC, which I have subsequently discovered were there right from the very beginning and I was totally unaware of it. I had no idea until I think it was July 2005. I had no idea.
And the domestic press, certainly The Daily News and what else was there apart from the Daily News? What ever else, what ever other domestic media there was, also didn’t investigate the MDC - almost at all. And because of the polarization any criticism that appeared in the Herald or on ZBC I think we all dismissed as propaganda, and that’s also a natural thing that would happen. I saw that happening in South Africa as well.
Nevertheless if we’d been on our toes, a bit smarter and not so anxious and longing for the end of Zanu PF we would have and should have seen that the MDC was in trouble almost from the day it was launched. And so when it split in 2005 it was not a surprise. I remember I was down in Bulawayo in early October 2005 when I realized that an actual split was coming and that was because I had interviewed the Mayor of Bulawayo and I asked him what he would do if the MDC called for a boycott of Senate elections?
And he said to me, ‘We’ll have to field independent candidates because we cannot have Zanu PF taking our space. We down here we have a different experience of Zanu PF a longer experience of Zanu PF than people in the rest of the country. We’ve earned our place, our MPs have earned the right to be MPs for a long time and we want them to stay. We don’t want Zanu PF to have any position in the whole of Matabeleland particularly Bulawayo.’
And I remember thinking to myself ‘oh oh, this is a tricky situation,’ because in Harare we knew that people were so against the senate elections, participating in the senate elections. So clearly there had been inadequate consultation within the MDC. I reported that only I think for V.O.A because quite frankly the other newspapers were not, you know it was again a very domestic story, very domestic story. Then we came across the violence in the MDC. Read More...
Courtesy of Newzimbabwe.com
67 comments:
Well,My Brother Kuthula,I hope you will agree with me when i say Peta Thorncroft has the right to express her opinion against the MDC.She may be a respected Internatinal Journalist even reporting for the UK Daily Telegraph as you say yet she is not the Voice of the many Oppressed Zimbabweans.If she has lost faith in MDC then it is her problem,Let the Voters decide but we need an electoral field which is level and see if Murderous Zpf will win.
Tsvangirayi is weak-So what? What has it to do with the current situation of the suffering masses?Has Tsvangirayi killed anyone in order to remain in power? Has he ever starved the Masses in order for them to vote for him?
Do you wish to live in a State where The President is everything Kuthula,Where he decides what you should see on Tele and listen to the Radio.Even the Language he decides which language you must listen on TV.Don't you dream of a State where People will be free and decide how they want to live their lives.
Can you solve this mystery for me Kuthula and i will much appreciate your help and be very grateful.It is difficult for me to understand this-Before the 1987 Unit Accord,The Late Joshua Nkomo used to suffer the same treatment as Tsvangirayi today from Mugabe and his supporters,He was branded "Traitor" who almost sold the country to the British during the Lancaster house Talks,He was referred to as a"Snake whose head must be crushed" and guess what? 30 000 of his followers were slughtered.Two of His generals Lookout Masuku and Dumiso Dabengwa-The two undisputed liberation Struggle Heroes were detained for years until Masuku lost his Life due to illness widely believed to be caused by Poisoning in Prison(I strongly believe this allegation is True because of the scale of Zanu Pf wickedness).
Then AFTER Nkomo had been forced into submission and signed the Unity accord,He died 12 years later,That is where the Irony of the matter is.He is declared a National Hero and buried at the Heroes accre.We see Mugabe praising Nkomo and hailing him as the country's greatest Hero,He is no longer a "Snake" or a "Traitor"
General Lookout Masuku was never declared a National Hero at the time of His Death yet later after the Unity Accord his Body was exhumed and re-buried at the National Heroes Accre Why?Was Nkomo a Hero according to Mugabe's gospel because he fought and defeated Smith or because he succumbed to Mugabe's pressure and signed the Unity Accord which paved way to the fulfilment of Mugabe's ruthless ambition of Dictatorship and a One Party State?
Engage me my Brother on this issue i real want to know what really transformed Mugabe's bitter foe on his eyes from a Villian to a Hero in a space of Seven Years.Don't you think that if Tsvangirayi abandons his Politics of Opposition which i think is good for the Country he may also recieve accolades and adoration similar to Umdala Wethu.He may be even rewarded with the post of vice presidency.Surely as an Ardent ZPF Disciple you may know something which can unlock this mystery.
And when it comes to Britain invading Zimbabwe,Do not be fooled that Zimbabweans would have ever shed any tear had that terrible Wicked Dictator dethroned,Even if its the Devil carrying that tasks,We do not care as long it is done to libereate the People.As a Brother i respect you and iam very proud of you and your achievements but i will aso want you to understand that there is a Huge difference between the Country Zimbabwe and Mugabe and his Zanu Pf.We love our country and we are so patriotic to it but not to ZPF.
Thanks for your contribution. Will respond tomorrow (Tuesday)...just saw your contribution now when its late.
Kuthula, yet another person against your position. Won't you reconsider and join us in seeking freedom and a return to prosperity for our country?
Don't you have any sympathy for our young brothers and sisters back home born after 2000 who have Zero clue of what life was like during the 80s and 90s? I may be naive for thinking we can return to what I consider normalcy but I refuse to accept the status quo.
Hi Brother Kuthula.
I and my Girlfreind are always in our computer,anxiously waiting for your response as you promised.
I hope you are fine.
Hi Nhlanhla,
I am terribly sorry for failing to respond on time. I will definitely respond. I have 2 take home exams due 12 Dec and an essay. I have some marking to do for 55 students with about 15 pages each and the results are needed again by 12 Dec. latest.
Please bear with me. I am very keen to engage you. I am not running away. In fact you present very interesting issues that I look forward to respond to. I will not do a hurried job. I have the time factor in mind. Please bear with me.
This week I cant even do my radio programme because of the pressing school work.
Kuthula
Dave, You must know that i do not take positions based on whether people support me or not. I argue points based on facts on the grounds. I should not be held responsible for your burying heads in the sand and deflecting the gist of my argument. Anyway let me finish my school work and then engage you.
you wnt have to wait for too long. I am just rounding up my marking and respponding to you Nhlanhla. These pase few days were really crazy!!
Do not worry Brother,Just take your time,I understand your commitments,It is good for you first to finish marking your Exams,I will wait.
Wish you the Best.
Gentlemen and Ladies,
Allow me to air my views in regard to this matter. Hopefully I'll be able to clearly express myself.
Point No 1
Certainly Peta Thorncroft is not and can never be the mouth piece of all the Zimbabweans and those who have an interest in the country. However it would be to our benefit for us to welcome such criticisms over any subject, for diverse minds lead to wider horizons of consideration before making resolutions. And I'm sure you'll agree with me that a decision that is reached after taking into account as many aspects to the matter as possible is likely to be the best. So personally I regard such criticisms as constructive and should be spared an ear, though what I’m saying should not be substituted for being gullible. Also when these are brought our way, may be it would be best not concentrate on the person bringing them but their contents, which should be viewed objectively if at all we are to benefit. In short there could be some sense in what Matshazi & Thornicroft are raising. Come let us reason together.
Point No 2
We have a case in point which should be a lesson to us bantu bakithi. Prior to 1980 all of us had a common enemy - Colonialism, white rulership, whatever name you may attach to it. And in 1980 it is Zimbabweans that enthroned Mugabe. It was a majority decision for him to occupy that seat. Right now he is able to rig elections because he has certain powers which are not common to all other people. These powers were conferred on him through the ballot box in 1980.
However if one may ask, “What credentials did those who vote for him take into account before nominating him as the best candidate”. Probably the only credential was that he was black. However if the wheel of time could be rolled back to 1980, how many among those who voted for him would do the same, I'm quite sure today there are some blacks who would even be prepared to vote for Ian Smith given that chance. This is a case study for us all.
Now bantu bakwethu, all the evils you are raising regarding the ruling powers of Zimbabwe are true. Most guys have been exiled against their preferences due to the unprecedented suffering prevalent in Zimbabwe and is being caused by one man. However be wary, history may repeat itself; now the man has become the common enemy to everybody, we may concentrate on dethroning him and forget to weigh the substitute Morgan. Bakwethu, once bitten, twice shy, let us not overlook nor forget taking into account certain credentials about Morgan lest we enthrone another Mugabe who will cause us more suffering in a different dimension.
And when people criticize Tswangirayi, it does not mean that they are for ZANU, NO!!!. All it means is let us widen up our scope of reasoning and considerations, if Morgan does not meet what we need as a solution let us develop what will be a suitable solution. Honestly who in his/her normal senses would want Mugabe to continue in power? Surely no one, but the big question is “Are we sure Morgan is the best answer”, if not this is the time to air those views and come up with what will be best for us. We do not want to dethrone imamba, siphanyeke umgobho that will be same soup though in different containers. Laye uMorgan should convince us ukuthi he is the right candidate. But judging from some of his modeeds, I bet we will cry, especially thina abesintwini. For instance he is quick to want to forgive Mugabe for the Gukurahundi massacres, but is he the complainant in the matter, does he fully comprehend the gravity of the matter, to those who witnessed the era konke okungo-operation murambatsvina lokhu, water shortage & electricity cuts cannot match the brutality that was suffered then. If he is to say anything regarding the matter, if he is a true nationalist he should consult the victims. He should not bull doze his own views. This to me simply says he has no compassion for abakoMthwakazi and has potential to be an uncontrollable detector.
Finally and in a nutshell, we all agree, There is need for regime change, and in my opinion we still have a home work when it comes to the question “Change regime from ZANU to what?” The “what” of it should be determined by what the potential candidate/party upholds, and their conduct should be evidence to that effect by being consistent with that. Singamane sijabulele nje ukuphuma kweZANU njengalokhu okwenzakala ngo1980 abntu bejabulela ukuphuma kwabamhlophe. Asinakaneni kabanzi, nxa esephumile kungenani?
Sikhathele ngalababantu!!!!!
For those who did not have chance to bump on any of the articles where Morgan was quoted as wanting to forgive Mugabe, I have posted one below. KwabakoMthwakazi uthi yena the man was a great leader in the first 10 years, livumelana lakho na? Uba livumelana lakho ngitsheleni ukuba what's great ngelakuboniswa ngamajaha amabharetha abomvu in his first 6 years? Nxa umongameli wenu lo ehlabela lingoma liyivuma kanjani? Safa, singavumi ukufa kabili. Akanasihelo, akananembeza uMorgan. Bengiyomhlonipha uba ebengayithula lindaba, Uba efisa ukuyithinta, kaqale asiphe isiqiniselo sokuthi he will rectify the consequences of the era. Not lokhu akukhulumayo.
THE LEADER of one of the factions of the Movement for Democratic Change, Morgan Tsvangirai, has said that President Robert Mugabe will be 'forgiven' for alleged atrocities he is accussed of perpetrating in Matabeland and Midlands in the first four years of his tenure as the Zimbabwean prime minister.
Speaking to Al Jazeera's Sir David Frost (see video below) on the sidelines of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) in Kampala, Uganda, the MDC leader said, "vindictiveness and retribution will not be helpful," and that if he forms a government, he will forgive President Robert Mugabe for alleged atrocities.
Although he agreed that there were government-sponsored massacres in Matabeleland and Midlands in the early 1980s Tsvangirai said that Mugabe "was a wonderful leader for the first 10 years."
Asked whether he feels he will, one day, be president of Mugabe, Tsvangirai said that he wanted "not necessarily to be president, but to create a new Zimbabwe."
Tsvangirai also dismissed allegations of violence within his faction as media manipulation and said that those incidents were "little incidents" that were blown out of proportion by the media.
This is not the first time Tsvangirai's MDC has dismissed allegations of violence and dictatorship. His spokesman, Nelson Chamisa, recently attacked the media whom he said had 'fanciful delusions' and were perpetrating divisions within the democratic movement and the MDC.
The CHOGM meeting opened on Friday and is being attended by 52 heads of state.
Zimbabwe is no longer a member of the Common-wealth after President Robert Mugabe withdrew the country from the Club in 2003. This was after Commonwealth leaders' meeting in Abuja, Nigeria had agreed to extend Zimbabwe's suspension indefinitely for alleged human rights violations.
Frost over the World - Morgan Tsvangirai - 23 Nov 07 (Courtesy of Al Jazeera/YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tZoet3lBQ0
Anonymous,Uyakhuluma Mfowethu,I totally agree with you,Tsvangirai is the weakest creature ever to emerge in Zimbabwean politics after
Ndabaningi Sithole and i hope in the New Dispensation he must be be charged of the worst crime of Deception,Yet when it comes to the crisis which have befell our Country,we must not use this poor man as a scape goat while we know who is guilty of these hineous crimes.
i also don't trust Tsvangirai when it comes to his dealings with the Precious offspring of Mzilikazi but let us not forget that in his reckless statement which was uttered in Kampala in regards to the so called "illegal" amnesty to the "Butcher Man" this is politics.(it is likely that he want to offer the Dictator some false hope in order for him not to cling to power,Remember what happenned to Augusto Pinochet and Charles Taylor).
Mtaka Baba,Last week former Peruvian president was in Court for the disappearance and murder of 100 people during his presidency,then people expect that the senseless murders of 30 000 will be just swept under the carpet for the sake of peace and Unity which never was, then Zimbawe will be a country out of this Planet.
Wakithi,Thina we are betrayed by our own people in Zanu Pf,there do not represent the needs of their own people but ther are there to represent Mugabe in Matabeleland,There are just his bootlickers.Have you ever heard them pressing the Government to bring development in our region or advocating for justice and equality.Do you remember what happenned when it was said that Jonathan Moyo was about to introduce the Gukurahundi Bill in Parlaiment.John Nkomo and Dumiso Dabengwa were the first to condemn Moyo's idea as rubbish,Dabengwa even went further to say the issue was resolved after the signing of the Unity accord in December 1987.He said both sides were granted Amnesty.Dabengwa has lost his head.Does he mean these 30 000 and their families were also responsible for that senseless conflict?
Ngiyakhala even today MtakaMama,Zpf celebrated victory on the 5th of April 1986 the day my Hero and Commander Lookout Mafela Vumindaba Khalisabantu Masuku made a shock exit out of this World.He was a True icon who wouldn't be bought or sold unlike these Traitors in Zpf,He was the Voice of the Voiceless,Remember his leters to Mugabe during the intergration of Guerillas in the National army,He stood firm and resolate in exposing injustices meted out against Zipra cadres,I wonder whether Lookout would have allowed his people to settle for less for the sake of Unity,Never! iNKOMO IBINGAZALUMUNTU EMHLAHLA NDLELA. No wonder his Death was suspicious.
It is really sad that today Mugabe and ZPF are trampling upon the national flag with impunity.Bekuzila esintwini ukuthi umuntu athi esenza ubutshapha kubekhona abantu abamtshayela ihlombe. habe! ngumhloa lowo!
Look what happenned during the so called ZPF "exta-ordinary congress last week between John Nkomo and Jabulani Sibanda fighting for recognition!Currently,there is a Showdown in court between Jonathan Moyo agaisnt John Nkomo and Dabengwa,Balwa bodwa-Do they honestly believe that ZPF cares about them-LIHLAZO LELI!
Nhlanhla
Ngiyabonga mntaka baba. Sihlabela ngomanye. Ngivumelana lawe mpela kukho konke okulethileyo. This includes the fact that Tswangirayi is NOT at all responsible for amanyala esibhukutsha kuwo ekhaya. The culprit is known and obvious; However the question is "Is Tswangirayi the answer?" “Sizothatha amatshansi futhi?” Kimi kubuhlungu, kuphela nje anginamandla. Even Mzilikazi, if he were to wake up and see what eventually became of his nation, I bet he would have us all killed for the crime of cowardice.
Utsho kahle wethu, (Mina ngizakufaka kanje, "KoMthwakazi WE fail our own selves", and yu have sighted perfect examples ezenza sibe yinhlekisa at the end of the day. And if I may suggest this to yu probably it will sound out of this world and over ambitious, But this is my honest opinion: Our solution as usapho lukaMzilikazi is to vie for cessation, kaliqunywe ilizwe benze ubutshabi babo bodwa khonangale lathi sizibhayizele sodwa kolwethu uhlangothi.
You know what, I am one person who while acknowledging that Jonathan had his own shortcomings, but do salute him. Apart from the numerous examples which allude to his commitment over the Mthwakazi case (& I suppose you are conversant with), He did more for Tsholotsho than Mqabuko did for Kezi.. Uboke uthathe uhambo ngomgwaqo we-Kezi ubone ukuthi mubi njani.
Also ungizwe kahle, I'm not taking away from Ubaba Zimbabwe the credits he deserves. Laye he had his own shortcomings and the question I often ask pple who blame him is "Where were his pple to make up for those shortcomings?" Abantu besintwini siyambheka umuntu ecenta indlela singamsizi, athi ma esibabuthakathaka siqale ukumgcona kulokuthi sidobhe amakhuba lathi simsize. Uyihlabelile ingoma OkaNcube, Pius, ekubeni ibisatshelwa by influencial persons like Dabengwa, Sikhanyiso, and the new governors labo senator besintwini, it would not have been easy for ZANU to paralyze the old man. But as yu say, bayalunga, balunge angathi ngabakhwenyana bezanu, baviyoce lalapho okumele bavuse khona amakhanda abantu bakithi. Which is a betrayal to the marginalized population.
Even uCont Mhlanga, he is one person who has voiced ubuqotho, kodwa simane sibheke nxa amanqe emzulela.
Well I salute L Masuku, unfortunately he wouldn't perpetually exist to shoulder our cares. And as we speak past laurels will not address our predicament. My dream is of a Nhlanhla
Ngiyabonga mntaka baba. Sihlabela ngomanye. Ngivumelana lawe mpela kukho konke okulethileyo. This includes the fact that Tswangirayi is NOT at all responsible for amanyala esibhukutsha kuwo ekhaya. The culprit is known and obvious; However the question is "Is Tswangirayi the answer?" “Sizothatha amatshansi futhi?” Kimi kubuhlungu, kuphela nje anginamandla. Even Mzilikazi, if he were to wake up and see what eventually became of his nation, I bet he would have us all killed for the crime of cowardice.
Utsho kahle wethu, (Mina ngizakufaka kanje, "KoMthwakazi WE fail our own selves", and yu have sighted perfect examples ezenza sibe yinhlekisa at the end of the day. And if I may suggest this to yu probably it will sound out of this world and over ambitious, But this is my honest opinion: Our solution as usapho lukaMzilikazi is to vie for cessation, kaliqunywe ilizwe benze ubutshabi babo bodwa khonangale lathi sizibhayizele sodwa kolwethu uhlangothi.
You know what, I am one person who while acknowledging that Jonathan had his own shortcomings, but do salute him. Apart from the numerous examples which allude to his commitment over the Mthwakazi case (& I suppose you are conversant with), He did more for Tsholotsho than Mqabuko did for Kezi.. Uboke uthathe uhambo ngomgwaqo we-Kezi ubone ukuthi mubi njani.
Also ungizwe kahle, I'm not taking away from Ubaba Zimbabwe the credits he deserves. Laye he had his own shortcomings and the question I often ask pple who blame him is "Where were his pple to make up for those shortcomings?" Abantu besintwini siyambheka umuntu ecenta indlela singamsizi, athi ma esibabuthakathaka siqale ukumgcona kulokuthi sidobhe amakhuba lathi simsize. Uyihlabelile ingoma OkaNcube, Pius, ekubeni ibisatshelwa by influencial persons like Dabengwa, Sikhanyiso, and the new governors labo senator besintwini, it would not have been easy for ZANU to paralyze the old man. But as yu say, bayalunga, balunge angathi ngabakhwenyana bezanu, baviyoce lalapho okumele bavuse khona amakhanda abantu bakithi. Which is a betrayal to the marginalized population.
Even uCont Mhlanga, he is one person who has voiced ubuqotho, kodwa simane sibheke nxa amanqe emzulela.
Well I salute L Masuku, unfortunately he wouldn't perpetually exist to shoulder our cares. And as we speak past laurels will not address our predicament. My dream is of a Mthwakazi nation that is absolutely separate from & independent of the Tshabiland. Morgan Mtshwankela is not the answer, I bet Simba Makoni might even be better. Bantwana baka baba safa, singavumi ukufa kabili. Imamba lomgobho akutshiyananga!!! And when pple raise criticisms over these matters akube yisaluleko kithi, let's not just move with the whims of the moment and lose foresight. It would be foolishness for us to forget where we are coming from. And where you and I Nhlanhla are coming from is not where Morgan comes from. He has professed it yena, out of his own volution ukuthi his first 10 years from 1980 were great, but yu and are likely to agree that no amount of suffering in zimbabwe will match esakuboniswa ngabamabharetha abomvu in the same period.
Where we are coming from and where we intend to go should be the issue of our focus. We may say kahambe uMgabe as we did to Smith, and as we did silibale ukuhlolisisa that which we will be empowering. Silimuke isisiluma imbabazane.
Ahoyi, kahambe uMgabe ngiyavuma, but is tswangirayi the answer? Once beaten twice shy!!
Yimi uQha bo!!
Nhlanhla
Pliz NB, I'm the same person who appeared as "anonymous" in two previous postings.
Qha bo! Ngiyabonga for bringing such issues which affects the people back home.About the idea of seccession,I wouldn't prefer it had it been we had a Government that treats all citizens equally irregardless of race,tribe or creed.I love my Country from Mutare to Plumtree and Beitbridge to Vic Falls. I can understand why you say so,I know where we come from and our experiences and i hope guests who visits this blog will understand that this is not about HATE kodwa kungenxa yejogwe leli esilithwele emahlombe and it is our DEMOCRATICALLY RIGHT for us to demand that if we feel no one cares for us.
Where i currently reside,AmaScotts want a break way from the Union and it's something they talk about openly without fear of intimidation.
Eyinye into ebengifuna ukuyazi yikuthi uzwile yini Wakithi that Ubaba U John Nkomo lo Mama UmaChinguri are guests at the ANC congress in Polokwane,SA.
I am just wondering what comes to their mind when they see what the ANC government is doing to it's people.This is the moment when they won't see quees at the Banks,Petrol Stations.They will be listening to over 50 independent and community radio stations,Newspapers and tv station broadcasting in 11 different SA languages.(Unlike them who are forcing people to listen only 4 radio and one tv staion broadcasting in one language which does not represent the demographics of the Country-SHAME ON THEM!).
There won't be an CIO spying on them and taping their phone calls.No violent slogans like "pasi na uyu na uyu",Even the looser between Mbeki and Zuma will accept defeat gracefully,They won't be threats of "they would be blood in the floor" because South African politics is far matured than ours.
The ANC government is not perfect,it has its own shortfalls,Yet its a responsible government which cares for it's people irregardless of their Tribe and colour.
Wakithi,Do yo expect these two zpf bigwigs to be ashamed by what they will see in Polokwane? I don't thik so,ZPF people's hearts have been hardened by their culture of violence,there do not have any compassion and humanity anymore.
People who endorse Mugabe as life President while just a few yards away from where they were it's reported a biggest que ever at a bank.(No cash in Banks)
Madoda,we now need Divine intervention!
Matshazi;
Pliz bear with me mnewethu bcoz it may sound like we are digressing from yo original post and probably using yo blog for what yu never intended. Ngicelwa uzwisise njalo usibekezelele, asilayo enye indlela yokuxhumana loNhlanhla except here, kanti njalo ezinye izinto kuhle zithungwe ebandla bonke belalele,
Ngiyabonga Nhlanhla, bengingakakuzwa ukuthi banxusiwe. Kodwake i think to some extent they are now fed up as well, haven't you read about wat John did to Sibanda in their congress? I will attach the article here. Besebedlephana bodwa abantu bakithi, as yu said ihlazo elinganani, instead of confronting the real problem and enemy.
Kodwa as for unembeza ngivumelana lawe, kabala nembeza. Babheka izisu zabo nje qha. Bayeke bayebona ukuthi amanye amazwe aqhuba njani lanxa nje kungeyi kubaguqula.
Also I'm attaching a critique by someone which when i was reading i thot yu cud be interested in just going thru. Not bcoz I subscribe to all wat the writer raises but as a mateer of reading wide to gain indepth in these issues and to widen the horizons of thinking and viewing issues.
The Mthwakazian Copyright ©2004 on Tuesday, December 18, 2007
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Oppression: An Exposition Of Ndebele Collaboration
by Sikhathele Mkhwahla
Sunday, December 16, 2007
Introduction
It is a very sad reality that the last 20 years since the Unity Accord [1987-2007] mark the worst years of Ndebele humiliation in defeat and unrestrained collaborative tendencies by the Ndebele people.
The New International Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus says to collaborate is to ‘cooperate willingly and traitorously with the enemy.’ While collaboration is neither new nor peculiar to Ndebele people, what is more repugnant is the justification for the treachery.
It is not necessary here to narrate the many cases of collaboration during Rhodesian rule because conventional history can address that and also the liberation war dealt strongly with sell-outs. The focus here is on collaboration in post-independent Zimbabwe where the Ndebele face probably the worst threat to their survival and continued existence as a people and where collaborators glorify themselves as heroes rather than what they truly are –bloody villains.
For record’s sake it is crucial to emphasize that Zimbabwe as a modern country is historically the result of the annexation of Matabele country to Mashonaland (by then Rhodesia proper) after the fall of the Ndebele State. This was after Impi YeMfazo or the Anglo-Ndebele War of 1893. While today Zimbabwe is one country [made of two territories] it has at least two nations; the Shona (dominant) and the Ndebele (dominated).
Ndebele collaboration is the cooperation with the ruling Shona elite in the continued internal colonization of Matabeleland, the subjugation of Mthwakazi nation and the shameless plunder of her resources.
The Gukurahundi Ideology
By Gukurahundi ideology is meant all the ideas, beliefs, actions and attempts by the Shona people to obliterate the Ndebele nation and subjugate Matabeleland as a permanent annexe of Mashonaland. The main tenets of Gukurahundi ideology are enshrined in the PROGRESS REVIEW ON THE 1979 GRAND PLAN.
Some might say that is a ZANU-PF document and programme. To an extent yes it is, but its purpose is Shona hegemony irrespective of political party. ZANU-PF merely is the vehicle through which Shona nationalism manifested and expressed itself. Gukurahundi genocide against the Ndebele squarely lies in the hands of ZANU-PF leadership, but Gukurahundi ideology is more pervasive.
What ZANU-PF implemented could as well have been done by UANC, ZUPO, ZANU-Ndonga, ZUD, FORUM Party, ZPP, UPM or MDC. One needs only to refer to statements by Joseph Msika former Vice-President of ZAPU and recently Morgan Tswangirayi of MDC. The desire and aspiration to dominate and subjugate the Ndebele is shared amongst the Shona elite irrespective of political party. That’s the Gukurahundi ideology meant to augment culturally, psychologically and economically what the Gukurahundi soldiers executed militarily.
The Conditions for Collaboration
Throughout history it is evident that no conquest can last unless the conquered accept their fate of oppression. It takes a slave to sustain slavery. The Shona elite know very well that Matabeleland cannot be sustained as an internal colony by the use of force alone. Actually, no amount of force in the world can keep a people in bondage unless that people give up the struggle for their freedom. ZANU-PF strategists had two-pronged options that would give them the same result.
First was the genocide option which in their mistaken view was meant to wipe out the Ndebele and re-populate Matabeleland thereafter with Shona people. Although absolute genocide was bound to fail, at least the Ndebele nation would be severely weakened to a point of subjugation without resistance. Cultural genocide would finish up where military genocide had failed.
The second option was to bludgeon the Ndebele to submission by breaking their resolve to statehood. Then the Ndebele elite would either be eliminated or bribed into aligning with the Shona elite in furthering hegemonic tendencies of the latter. The aftermath of Gukurahundi military extravaganza created a conducive climate for collaboration by the Ndebele elite.
Collaboration becomes rife once a people suffer defeat, humiliation, deprivation and thus gripped with hopelessness and directionless that generates opportunism. We identify three levels or scenarios of Ndebele collaboration as elaborated below.
The Unity Accord as Collaboration
It is common knowledge today in Matabeleland that Unity Accord was exploited by the PF-ZAPU leadership to join the ZANU-PF gravy train and hence facilitate the permanent occupation of Matabeleland. This should not surprise anyone, since it is the culmination of the two-pronged strategy by the ZANU-PF leadership.
PF-ZAPU represented the interests of many Zimbabweans but most significantly that of Matabeleland. Therefore, any conquest of the region would entail incorporation of PF-ZAPU leadership in the project. Those perceived to have been on the way of the Gukurahundi ideology were eliminated during the genocide campaign and those willing to collaborate spared.
In any case, significant positions in PF-ZAPU national executive were held by a compliant Shona elite that was very willing to re-unite with their victorious brethren in ZANU-PF. This group was largely spared from persecution, harassment and elimination which was visited on the Ndebele leadership of PF-ZAPU.
The immediate question is: was Dr Joshua Nkomo a collaborator? Did he sign the Unity Accord in order to facilitate the internal colonization of Matabeleland? History has the answer already. The history of Zimbabwe’s liberation struggle is littered with many abortive attempts to unite the liberation forces.
However, in reality and as ZANU-PF writers themselves have confirmed, all these were attempts to dismember ZAPU/ZIPRA and dislodge Nkomo and the Ndebele equation from the liberation struggle. Because Dr Nkomo was strong and committed the plots and machinations failed albeit with grave consequences. At independence, when ZANU-PF took power it requested Dr Nkomo to collaborate as titular president. Nkomo refused flatly. Actually, Dr Nkomo had even refused to join the Government of National Unity at independence.
Although he had to concede, he never collaborated and was eventually thrown out. What followed were several plots and conspiracies to eliminate Dr Nkomo and the Ndebele people. He only survived by the grace of the Almighty but thousands of Ndebeles were not as lucky. He had to concede to talks on Unity in the face of unabated genocide against his people and coupled with connivance by some of his colleagues in ZAPU/ZIPRA and an unsympathetic international community.
Dr Nkomo resorted to Lenin’s tactic of one step backward in order to make two forward. Unfortunately, he never lived long enough to make that forward step in person. Dr Nkomo never was a collaborator and never encouraged it as evidence abounds from his autobiography.
What history tells about Dr Nkomo and Unity Accord unfortunately does not apply to the rest of the PF-ZAPU/ZIPRA leadership. These leaders were already in cahoots with the enemy even before the Accord was signed. It was as if Dr Nkomo was stopping them from joining ZANU-PF and enjoy positions as collaborators.
By consenting to the Accord, Dr Nkomo actually exposed all the treacherous Ndebele leaders and demonstrated how difficult it had become for him to continue the resistance in the company of traitors. Whoever, is in ZANU-PF is in that party as a card carrying member who fully subscribes to the Party programme and ideology and can never claim to be in it because of Joshua Nkomo. Nowhere in the world has membership to a party been decided on by another person.
Any claim by those collaborators in ZANU-PF that they joined because of Dr Nkomo is not only nonsense but treacherous. Period! This collaboration due to political necessity was believed to be the only way to halt the Gukurahundi genocide.
Collaboration in War Veterans Association by Ex-Zipra
Maybe the most devastating blow to the Ndebele cause was the collaboration of Ex-ZIPRA combatants, especially through the Zimbabwe National War Veterans Association which has been turned into the ZANU-PF militia. Physically, the Gukurahundi Brigade was withdrawn from Matabeleland and Midlands but its terror is still sustained and perpetuated by the presence of War Veterans who ironically are Ex-ZIPRA.
The most demanding of the missions that the Ndebele people have ever had was the building of that revolutionary army against all imaginable odds. These were sons and daughters of Matabeleland who were sacrificed for the price of freedom. Thousands perished in the war against Rhodesians while innumerable succumbed to hunger, diseases, wild animals and other difficulties faced in war. As if that was not enough, the Zanla forces, CIO, PISI, Fifth Brigade and Youth Militias persecuted, tortured, imprisoned and butchered any Ex-ZIPRA member they could find.
In fact the genocide that the Ndebele nation suffered was on the pretext of pacifying the Ex-ZIPRA combatants. The people never abandoned ZIPRA even at the cost of their lives and many paid the ultimate price for allegedly sheltering the so-called ‘dissidents’ referring to Ex-ZIPRA. It is incredible that today, the same Ex-ZIPRA combatants who yesterday were hunted, butchered and paraded in rallies are today the worst enemies of the people – their own mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters.
It is a known fact that Ex-ZIPRA form the backbone of the Zimbabwe National War Veterans Association and the organisation has been a willing tool in violent campaigns in Matabeleland. The greatest threat to Ndebele freedom today is posed by Ex-ZIPRA cadres in the service of a repressive regime. Because of defeat, torture and humiliation, the Ex-ZIPRA regret having fought on the side of Nkomo and ZAPU and wish they were Zanla. To psychologically make up for that cognitive dissonance they unleash violence against their own people – the Enos Nkala syndrome!
Even the Unity Accord that assimilated PF-ZAPU into ZANU-PF does not say that ZIPRA should join Zanla. The unfortunate treachery by Ex-ZIPRA cadres has nothing to do with the Unity Accord and is unforgivable.
The Movement for Democratic Change and Ndebele Collaboration
While the majority in PF-ZAPU/ZIPRA collaborated directly with the Shona by joining the Shona nationalist party ZANU-PF, some people refused to join ZANU-PF while others joined but could not be rewarded to their satisfaction for their collaboration and hence pulled out and were to be part of the opposition.
The Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) was formed by those who initially refused to collaborate and by collaborators dissatisfied with ZANU-PF. What is significant to note is that in the final analysis the Ndebele collaboration led to the MDC formation. Why do we say so? We need a recall from our history. The historical split of the Zimbabwean nationalist movement in 1963 was over the refusal by Shona nationalists [the likes of Leopold Takawira, Robert Mugabe, Eddison Zvobgo, Edgar Tekere, Herbert Chitepo and collaborator Enos Nkala] to have an Ndebele in the person of Dr Nkomo in the leadership position.
Zimbabwe’s independence has shown that this Shona belief and practice is not confined to political leadership only but to virtually all spheres of life be it in business, education and even in churches. One would have expected the Ndebele elite to resist that overt marginalisation.
However, since the Gukurahundi ideology is the ruling ideology, it is now the Ndebele elite propagating the fallacy that no Ndebele can lead in Zimbabwe – remember Welshman Ncube’s utterances. Although this Gukurahundi ideology was propounded in ZANU-PF, it has permeated other political formations like the former Forum Party and recently the MDC. Those Ndebele elites in the MDC have become the agents and purveyors of Gukurahundi hegemony. Ndebele collaborators suffer from false consciousness since they have internalised their own marginalisation and rationalise it as natural. They falsely perceive Ndebele oppression as ‘natural’ yet it is socio-politically and economically constructed.
The MDC which apparently had to be led by Gibson Sibanda was prostituted by the Ndebeles themselves and opted for a Shona, Morgan Tswangirayi. The reason they would give whenever we asked was that if an Ndebele were to lead the opposition the majority Shona would not support it. Therefore, the Ndebele people have to be subjected to a Shona leader just to woo Shonas into the opposition. The Ndebele choice and feelings do not matter to these collaborators, what matters are Shona feelings. In a nutshell, MDC reflects the betrayal of Ndebele aspirations by collaborators who led that opposition outfit.
The MDC Split and Ndebele Collaboration
Just when the Ndebele collaborators in the MDC felt confident that they had won the Ndebele masses against fellow collaborators in ZANU-PF, the inevitable happened. The faked unity in the MDC project collapsed on its own. Bootlicking by the Ndebele elite could not whet the appetite of the hegemonic Shona in the MDC.
It is obvious to all that Morgan Tswangirayi was on the wrong but he stood his ground against the cowardly Ndebele collaborators and apparently got away with his political mischief. He took advantage of the political vulnerability of these Ndebele MDC leaders – the vulnerability borne out of their collaboration and bootlicking. When these Ndebele collaborators were nearly rendered irrelevant they had to hire yet another Shona [Arthur Mutambara] to lead them.
Those few Ndebele members of Tswangirayi faction of MDC do not necessarily agree with Tswangirayi’s misdeeds but because they saw an opportunity to replace fellow Ndebele collaborators ejected from higher echelons of that party, so they persevered. Both Ndebele groups in the Tswangirayi and Mutambara factions of the MDC are victims of their internalisation of the slave mentality.
Coalitions and Ndebele Collaboration
The Shona elite in the MDC have not ended there. Just like their ZANU-PF brethren they know that they can prostitute almost anyone in Matabeleland to serve their hegemonic and internal colonial interests. The latest victim is Paul Siwela’s version of ZAPU that was bribed into collaboration without any dime being paid out but the mere sound of tinkling coins. What a bunch of desperados!! In the name of coalition one group after another in Mthwakazi is being trapped in the name of alliances and Zimbabwe nationhood.
Notwithstanding the ideological contradictions in Paul Siwela and his version of ZAPU, he at least apparently stood on the right side of the Matabele people all along. His political adventurism of late smacks of opportunism typical of all Judases. How else could one describe people who seemingly resisted incorporation into ZANU-PF and MDC only to backtrack at the eleventh hour. It is sad that Ndebele groups compete for Shona recognition and this applies to civic groups, church, youth and women organisations.
The Ndebele people will never forget how organisations like the National Constitutional Assembly (NCA) diverted and thwarted efforts to bring up the Ndebele question. All collaborators through this pro-Shona organisations are known and marked.
The Aspirations of Collaborators
Maybe it is crucial to understand the reasoning behind collaboration if this evil habit amongst the Ndebele is to be stamped out and minimized in future generations. We have unmasked the disguise used by both ZANU-PF and MDC collaborators alike. Let us try and understand their true intentions which are of course personal agendas. Some of the reasons include;
· Some seek a parliamentary/senatorial seat in the Zimbabwean parliament and the associated benefits
· Possibilities of a ministerial or ambassadorial post in a Shona government
· Wealth, status, influence and abuse of power that goes with being ZANU-PF or MDC
· To gain recognition from the Shona masters and be accepted as ‘Zimbabwean’ therefore courting envy from the marginalised fellow Ndebele people.
The Consequences of Collaboration
We can only measure the consequences of collaboration in relation to the aims and objectives of our enemy. The enemy might have a deadly agenda towards us but he might not achieve that goal without a collaborator. Therefore, a collaborator enables the enemy to achieve goals that otherwise could not have been achieved.
It is in that light that the traitor is more dangerous to the Ndebele than the enemy itself, and in dealing with the enemy it is crucial to address the fate of traitors. The goal of the Shona elite under ZANU-PF is to wipe out all Ndebele people from existence, and hence the Gukurahundi genocide. The genocide was not motivated by tribal animosity but by excessive greed to usurp Ndebele territory and its wealth minus its inhabitants. The following are therefore some of the consequences of collaboration seen in light of the aforementioned:
· The permanent colonization and annexation of Matabeleland
· The suspension and criminalization of the Ndebele Question
· Neutralization of Ndebele identity, culture, history and national pride
· Keeping Ndebele protest at minimum levels that render it irrelevant
· Removal of Ndebele voice in the politico-economic arena in Zimbabwe
· Facilitating and naturalizing Ndebele acceptance of Shona dominance and hence docility and subservience towards the Shona people
· Unabated plunder of Matabele resources and underdevelopment of the region
· The full implementation of the 1979 Grand Plan and accomplishment of the Gukurahundi mission
How Collaborators Have Been Treated by the Shona
So far the focus has been on collaboration after the Unity Accord of 1987, however for the fate of collaborators especially in the hands of ZANU-PF it is crucial to draw from cases even prior to the Unity Accord. We want to show how the Shona have been cruel to Ndebele collaborators who had saved the Shona system so well and for very long periods.
In any case, why would anyone keep a dog that bites its own master. Collaborators are dangerous to their people so even the enemy does not need them after their dirty acts. Ndebele collaborators have been used like political condoms that are immediately discarded as worthless and dirty after use. The following cases are of note:
· Enos Nkala – the archetypical Ndebele traitor not only collaborated in the formation of an anti-Ndebele Shona nationalist party but went on to mastermind the Gukurahundi genocide against his own kith and kin. He was ejected from his ministerial and party post and spent his last years languishing in regret and self-rebuke. As if to confirm the adage that once a traitor always a traitor, he sponsored the Patriotic Union of Matabeleland (PUMA) in order to try a revenge on ZANU-PF.
· Canaan Sodindo Banana – accepted the title of president that had been rejected by Dr Nkomo and signed for the extermination of his own Ndebele people. The Shona retired him from that useless post, humiliated him in courts and imprisoned him for sodomy. Failing to contain the humiliation any further he died and was buried next to his father’s dusty grave in rural Mzinyathini – and not in the glittering Heroes Acre in Harare where he had hoped to. Even his own wife and children could not attend his funeral – confirming the Ndebele saying that walahlwa njengomgodoyi!
· Mark Dube – Ex-ZANLA Director of Training who fought gallantly in the ranks of the Shona army was elevated to Governor of Matabeleland South only to be dropped, ignored, and forgotten. He died a bitter and broken man amidst hunger, poverty, divorce and near-destitution.
· Cain Nkala – ExZipra turned ‘dissident’ turned ZANU-PF militia hitman but faced a more brutal death in the hands of his comrades and party. To ice the humiliation they buried him in Harare at Heroes Acre where he never ever imagined during his short troubled life. His fate was no different from that of his predecessor traitors like Moven Ndlovu and John Mbedzi.
· Callistus Dingiswayo Ndlovu – That Ex-ZAPU chief defector and traitor against his own people during their most trying times was given a ministerial post which was later taken away in a humiliating manner and is spending his last days licking his wounds in junior public service tasks.
· Welshman Mabhena – the once outspoken ZANU-PF Governor for Matabeleland North grew too complacent in his newly found party only to survive an attempt on his life through poisoning then later humiliated out of the post. Like another collaborator Enos Nkala, he joined Tswangirayi’s MDC hoping to become the second vice-president in a Tswangirayi-led government.
· Thenjiwe Lesabe – as leader of ZANU-PF Women’s League she falsely believed herself the most powerful woman on the land and sang all known praises to Robert Mugabe only to be demoted into oblivion when Joice Mujuru ascended to vice-presidency.
· Jonathan Moyo – the genius political scientist once Mugabe’s fiercest critic turned his greatest propagandist for reasons that he even cannot explain. He courted the wrath of Ndebele people more than any other collaborator save for Enos Nkala. In spite of the efforts he expended on the dirty campaign for ZANU-PF he was briefly rewarded with a junior ministerial post only to lose it faster than he got it. ZANU-PF relegated him to oblivion only to be saved by the hapless people of Tsholotsholo.
· MDC leaders like Welshman Ncube, Gibson Sibanda, Fletcher Dulini, Paul Themba Nyathi, etc worked tirelessly and more often risking their lives mobilising for MDC. ZANU-PF even labelled them sell-outs to Anglo-American imperialism but were eventually rejected by their master Morgan Tswangirayi in spite of the priceless work for him. Today, the same Tswangirayi faction calls them sell-outs and agents of ZANU-PF.
· Paul Bayethe Damasane - a cultural traitor masquerading as a Ndebele poet who has not only praised the system but has betrayed the legacy and pride of his fore-fathers by being isikhothamathe. The petty rewards he has received from his master in the form of the so-called presidential scholarship to Fort Hare will never make him a hero amongst our people.
The above cases are just few examples of public cases where Ndebele collaborators have paid painfully for working for the Shona cause rather than their own. There are too numerous other cases and some of the cruel treatment meted out to Ndebeles once they are thrown out is very painful to narrate. We do not feel sorry for these collaborators but we feel sorry for ourselves for having our own people descending to such low levels comparable to that of dogs.
The Wages of Collaboration : What Should be done to Collaborators
It has been said before and we repeat that the wages of sin is death. Collaboration is the worst and dirtiest sin against one’s own people. It is treason! It does not matter whether everybody is doing it or the seemingly powerful are doing it, it is wrong, it is betrayal. Whichever way collaborators may disguise their treachery, history will be cruel and expose them. Like in any self-respecting society, the Ndebele could do the following to collaborators:
· Record for future generations all collaborators from the genocide period to date and beyond
· Dispossess of all ill-gotten wealth obtained through betraying the nation
· Investigate, try, imprison and/or kill the traitors
These are some of the possible options available to deal with collaborators whenever opportunity arises. By the way, the people should not wait for possible victory first, which will be delayed by these acts of collaboration. The elimination of traitors should be a fore-runner to the people’s victory. The people of Matabeleland should never repeat the mistake of allowing traitors to gain political ascendancy again – never again.
Mugabe seethes as Nkomo, Sibanda clash at congress
NEAR FIGHT: Nkomo clashes with war veterans leader Jabulani Sibanda
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By Torby Chimhashu
Last updated: 12/15/2007 04:42:57
ZIMBABWEAN President Robert Mugabe was left seething when his ruling Zanu PF party’s national chairman John Nkomo and Jabulani Sibanda, the leader of the war veterans’ association, almost traded blows in front of thousands of delegates at the party’s congress in Harare on Friday.
The dramatic developments came on the second day of an extra-ordinary congress called to endorse Mugabe to lead the party for a sixth term.
Sibanda -- an abrasive war veteran who was suspended from Zanu PF in 2004 -- has clashed with senior Zanu PF officials including Nkomo after leading war veterans in nationwide marches in support of Mugabe’s candidature in presidential elections due next March.
The marches culminated in the so called “million man march” which drew thousands of Zanu PF supporters on the streets of Harare.
Mugabe, keen to foil a growing lobby of Zanu PF officials pushing for him to step down, refused to intervene and curtail Sibanda’s activities. Nkomo, who also chairs the Zanu PF disciplinary committee, had maintained that Sibanda remained suspended in Zanu PF and should not be involved in party activities.
Sibanda’s deputy in the war veterans’ association Joseph Chinotimba sparked the furore when he asked the former Zanu PF chairman for Bulawwayo province to step onto the podium “and be saluted for organising the one million man march” held at the Zimbabwe Grounds in Highfield last month.
As Sibanda gracefully walked to the high table where Mugabe and the high profile party seniors including his deputies Joseph Msika and Joice Mujuru were sitting, his colleagues in the war movement embraced him before Nkomo swiftly blocked his way and ordered him off the podium.
Raucous jeers and heckling filled the packed National City Sports Centre as Chinotimba and others tried to force Sibanda to the table.
An angry Nkomo grabbed the microphone and pointed an accusing finger at Sibanda before saying: “You! You are the problem. Stay away from the table.”
This was all captured on state-run television which broadcast the event live.
A seething Mugabe grabbed the microphone from Nkomo and bellowed instructions to have order, but for almost a minute, he appeared to have lost control.
“Chimurenga ichi. Hatidaro. Ngatiitei discipline. Ngatigarei pasi. Nyaya yaJabulani Sibanda tinoiziva tichaitaura pano. (This is a struggle. We don’t do that. Let’s show discipline and may everyone please be seated. We were going to discuss the issue of Jabulani Sibanda,” Mugabe said, gritting his teeth in an apparent show of suppressed anger.
The veteran leader eventually won the crowd and sent Sibanda back to the crowds.
Story continues below
FURY: Mugabe seized microphone and called for order
During the chaos, Sibanda’s rivals, notably Msika and retired army general Solomon Mujuru remained calm without betraying any emotion.
Sibanda teamed up with Emmerson Mnangagwa, the leader of a Zanu PF faction which is battling for control of the party against another led by Vice President Joice Mujuru, in the pro-Mugabe marches.
He quarrelled with Zanu PF leaders from Matabeleland who questioned his role in the marches. Among those critical of Sibanda were Nkomo, Msika and Dumiso Dabengwa who all argued he had no authority to use the war veterans since he was suspended in 2004.
The energetic Sibanda was suspended in 2004 as punishment by Mugabe for allegedly participating in an “illegal” meeting in Tsholotsho which was said to have been called to install Mnangagwa as Mugabe’s deputy ahead of Mujuru.
But the incident at the congress Friday left many analysts convinced that the ghost of Tsholotsho and the disquiet in Zanu PF over Mugabe’s pursuit of a new term show the party in a crisis.
They argued that the jeering of Sibanda and direct confrontation with Nkomo in front of the ageing leader, were an assault on him since he had brought Sibanda back into the fold under a shroud of controversy.
While Mugabe might have railed against Sibanda, analysts said this was tactical as Mugabe owed his new term to the war veteran’s efforts.
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newsdesk@newzimbabwe.com
Does anyone have the patience to read these ridiculously long posts? Can't you make your points more concisely?
The fact that it is a dialogue is evidence enough that someone reads them.
After all to any observant person, the comments are not as long as the original post is.
Qha BO! Ngiyabonga MtaneNkosi ngomusa wakho ongaka nangokuthi uziphe ithuba lakho uvuthela uphondo.
I am also grateful to you, to first render your apology KuBaba UMatshazi ukuthi asibekezelele,Ngoba vele kufanele sihloniphe umsebenzi wakhe njalo silandele imigomo nemthetho ye Blog yakhe.Ngijabuliswa yikuthi asithuki muntu lapha,Ingabe umhlophe noma ngomnyama but it's facts that has been laid bear for anyone to see and judge for themselves.To my freind Dave,I'm sorry we have to talk about this,If you want to understand our feelings towards this matter ask the Jews who survived the Holocaust,they will tell you better.And another thing we won't do is to be ashamed and scared to speak about our afflictions.NEVER!We are no DEFEATISTS.Also wishing to congratulate okaMsholozi,UGedleyihlekisa,Ngisho phela u JZ ngokunqoba kwakhe uMbeki.NAMUHLANJE ZIYA GIYA INTOMBI ZAKWAZULU!It was pure Democracy at work!
mFOWETHU Qha BO! also possess another another document called "PROGRESS REVIEW OF THE 1979 GRAND PLAN GIFT! Angazi if you once heard about it.It was first published by Matthew Parris on the 26th of October 2002 in "The Times of London" under the headlines "Blue print for Massacre" The Government embarrassed that the Evil Document has been leaked to the International Media,and was being circulated by other concerned and responsible Mthwakazians in the City of Kings,it sanctioned the The Sunday News to publish it on December 2002 and as expected Shamuyarira pointed to the British M15 and the MDC as Authors of that Document of Hate because they wanted to pity the two Tribes against each other, which according to his own mouth "were living together peacefully"
The City Press of South Africa also quoted Mutasa dismissing the document as "the hand of Britain",He even went further to say that his son is married to a Ndebele Woman and the relations have improved between the two Tribes.
But one does not need a rocket scientist or an interpreter to tell who is the Mastermind and brain behind that document because it boasts about exactly what transpired and what is still happenning in Zim.The Matabeleland Massacres,The politically and economically disempowerment of the Precious children of Mzilikazi.
One needs to remind Shamuyarira and Mutasa that it is not the British who senselessly killed over 30 000 pple(even though evidence from the BBC Panorama programme in 2002,shows that the UK
government was an accomplice in that Crime),They need to be reminded that it is not the British which is Tribal segregating and marginalising their fellow Africans in Zimbabwe-IT IS THEIR ZANU-PF.
Mtaka-Baba,angithandanga ukuthi ngilithumeze kuBlog kaBaba uMatshazi ngoba ngihlonipha umsebenzi wakhe,Iyinhlamba leyana incwadi,ihlambalaza isizwe sakithi ngisho nabanye abakwaMambo who love to see Peace and Unity prevailing in Zimbabwe irregardless of RACE,CREED AND TRIBE.That is why i did not post it here but nxa uyifuna we can try to make arrangements kodwa hatshi ukuthi singayithumela lapha ngomsebenzi kaMatshazi-The Enemy may dance and celebrate becuase we will be promoting their screwed,evil,misguided and Satanic ideologies.
EVEN THOUGH THE DEVIL SHALL SLAY US,YET THE REMNANT OF MZILIKAZI SHALL SURVIVE.
I may email Cont mhlanga the stuff if you want it, then you can ask him to send it to you.Get his email via the website of Amakhosi.
Inspired by the Nuremberg Trials,ikhehla lami elidala lashiya lingitshele ukuthi ngigcine yonke into eyibufakazi.A TIME OF RECKONING SHALL COME AND IT IS NIGH!THE HAND OF JUSTICE FILLED WITH VENGEANCE SHALL REACH OUT TO THE PERPRTRATORS OF THAT HORRIBLE GENOCIDE AGAINST THE INNOCENT AND DEFENCELESS CHILDREN OF MZILIKAZI.THEY CAN BOAST AND DANCE ON THE BLOOD OF OUR LOVED ONES,THINKING THAT THE SUN WILL NEVER SET UPON THEM,YET OUR FINEST HOUR IS YET TO COME,WE MAY NOT LIVE TO SEE THAT DAY OF JUSTICE,BUT SURELY IT IS COMING!kabalale ngoxolo oNdiweni eTsholothsho,oNkabinde eNkayi,oMaKhumalo esigodini,oMaNcube eLupane.OHlabangane eLowerGweru-Ukhona ozobanqobela-THEY DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE IN SUCH HIDEOUS CRUELTY.
Ngiyabonga Mtakwethu,kuyangicacela uthando onalo lokuziqhenya,kanti lokunakekela kwakho isizwe
saboYihlomKhulu.
Qha Bo,
Hatshi, ungakhathali. Xoxani nje likhululekile. Nhlanhla, sengikhona.
Nhlanhla,,
I am back. My apologies for taking so long. I really was pressed for time. To your issues:
That’s true that Peta has prerogative to express her views. It is interesting that now you are invoking the freedom of speech argument. Were not these the champions of the “free Press” whom you relied on for your news and analysis? And when those criticised or represented by Peta complained, you would charge them with intolerance or even refusing to face reality. Now the tables are being turned. Now Peta is a source of discomfort for you. She is now “entitled to her own views” Interesting!!!!
You say “Tsvangirai is weak-So what?” Are you serious about this question? You don’t care about Tsvangirai’s weakness? You accept his weakness? If we don’t care about competent leaders then what’s the fuss all about then Nhlanhla with ZPF or Prez Mugabe? Is it not the same reason that you are accusing them of: weakness? You are most amazingly two faced!!! We need strong and efficient leader not weak leaders. There is a matter if Tsvangirai is weak. His weakness caused him to blunder at every corner; be beaten several times over by ZPF and promises heaven and yet delivers Hell. He has even caused the most catastrophic economic situation in Zimbabwe by calling for economic sanctions. That’s not a leader we want.
Criticising Tsvangirai does not mean I do not want democracy. Its one thing to say Tsvangirai is weak and then point his weaknesses and it’s another to desire democracy. I did not make that comparison but Nhlanhla you invoke it. Where that comes from, I don’t know. Maybe I implied it somewhere in my writing. Please kindly point it to me.
About ZAPU and its cadres, I can only say that it seems the fact that they came together under the unity accord was the reason why they reconcile. Yes, there were very huge differences and unfair treatment of Nkomo, but there was reconciliation, of which led to some semblance of peace. Its not a perfect situation but we saw a situation whereby committed nationalists coming together to work for the peace of the country. The MDC refuses and sticks with its Western backers. Tsvangirai is bent on destroying the country if he does not get into power. Nkomo could have easily done that but because he was a committed Zimbabwean he chose a route of nation building. This is what we expect of Tsvangirai and not destruction.
We shall shed tear were UK to invade Zimbabwe. In fact we would fight them to the last drop of blood. Mugabe shall be taken out by Zimbabweans not Britain. Who are they to invade Zimbabwe? Colonial Masters? Never in a life time again that brutality and demeaning oppression.
Nhlanhla
I actually have a soft copy of the Grand plan. There are two of them, the original and the revised. I never came across the comments and citiques of the masters of the document kodwa ke the situation on the ground can confirm mntakababa ukuthi they are pursuing what they resolved in there.
Azibotshwe, Ma isikhala kakhulu isiyodabuka!!!
Matshazi,
Xola besengilibele ukubonga, ukuvumela sixoxisana loNhlanhla kublog yakho ngendaba esingathi ingaphandle kwe-topic yakho.
EMatshazi baba.
Thank yo Matshazi,You are finally back.At least i'm honest enough to finally realise and concede that Tsvangirai has failed the masses unlike ZPF people whose political blindness has caused untold suffering to the man in the street.
Mugabe's incompetent and self-serving leadership makes Tsvangirai look good even if he has been denied access to the State House by Fraudlent Zpf.
Matshazi,Can you please show me any sane person who has subscribed and believed this lie and ZPF sponsored propaganda which says Tswangirai brought sanctions
to Zimbabwe.
The Economist Erich Bloch did explain to us how these "Targeted" sanctions work.Lybia and Cuba had worse sanctions than those that are aimed at ZPF thugs,yet they emerged stronger.Think of Somalia which hasn't had an organised Government for the past 17 years yet their currency is not in a free fall like the Zim Dollar.
God help us if we still have a people who still think Mugabe and ZPF are the country.Sanctions to ZPF were imposed by the International community led by UK,USA and Europe after a ridiculous Dictactor refused to get reformed and create an atmosphere of Democracy.Who can blame them,No one can reason with Mugabe with such annoying and embarrassing pride and arrogance.
Matshazi!Do you honestly want me to believe that those pple who signed the Unity Accord are Nationalists.Gangsters who are bent on destroying and looting the country you call them Nationalists?
You may not need my prayer but i promise to pray for you on this matter.
Ngiyabonga.
While it is true that you concede to the weakness of Tsvangirai, your tragedy is that sanitise his weakness and destructiveness...all in the name of providing an alternative to ZPF. It defeats the whole purpose of your argument/struggle. It’s strange how, on the one hand you vehemently oppose ZPF’s “blindness” and yet on the other hand you concede Tsvangirai’s weakness but go ahead to defend it. Is that not really strange? This leads me to think that you are opposed to ZPF but do not care as to who comes into power. That’s very, very strange logic for anyone who purports to be seeking effective solutions for the country.
Contrary to your assertion, no amount of weakness will make Tsvangirai look good. Tsvangirai is a disaster. We can only compare the levels of disaster and not dwarf his gross destructiveness.
Is it not the MDC that drafted the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act for the Americans? Is it not Tsvangirai who went globetrotting supporting sanctions? Is it not Gibson Sibanda (when he was still Tsvangirai’s deputy) who went to Europe lobbying for the tightening of sanctions (The Zimbabwe Independent had a front page picture of Gibson canvassing for economic sanctions in Europe)? Did Paul Themba Nyathi not absolve himself and others of supporting sanctions and laid the blame on Tsvangirai? He said it was Tsvangirai who was calling for sanctions. Don’t even try to skirt the truth.
I think to understand that there are “targeted sanctions” in Zimbabwe, you need to understand what economic sanctions are. I believe you don’t or if you do then you are bent on deceiving. Familiarise yourself with the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001. You will see that sections 4 and 6 contain economic sanctions clauses for Zimbabwe and individuals respectively. If you read the EU position paper, the first articles (I think Art. 2 or 7...just double check) will also show you that it’s the “government of Zimbabwe” targeted. So for you to reduce it to fiction something that is so clear is beyond comprehension. I can’t explain the feel-good myth that anti-ZPF elements so religiously cling to about the non-existence of economic sanctions. What you call “targeted sanctions” are indeed targeted. But we need to understand what is “targeted”. CERTAIN ECONOMIC ACTIVITIES ARE “TARGETED”. Then this targeting of certain economic activities is disguised behind the economic sanctions “targeted” to certain individuals. You still don’t get this simple fact. If you really do not get this fact then you do understand the real issues at play. By the way, by conceptual definition of economic sanctions, individual sanctions (those that you call “targeted sanctions”) are in fact ECONOMIC SANCTIONS). Hence my suggestion that you don’t understand what economic sanctions are.
There are so many factors that move currencies. It’s not merely the absence of government as in Somalia that can cause a currency to depreciate. In any case its value could even rise without a government. Other factors such as currency speculations and economic sabotage can kill the currency, which is happening in Zimbabwe.
No one said Mugabe or ZPF are the country. We are discussing issues of principle and facts. We can’t, just because we hate so and so, start distorting the truth and disregarding facts.
By the way, the international community did not apply sanctions. Namibia, India, China, Russia, Fiji, South Korea, Argentina, Brazil, SA and other countries did not impose sanctions on Zimbabwe. Neither did ASEAN, OPEC, ECOWAS, MERCUSOR, etc. Let me put it more clearly, the three continents that have the most number of people in the world, constituting about 80% did not apply economic sanctions on Zimbabwe. Africa, Asia and Latin America, the Caribbean Islands did not impose economic sanctions on Zimbabwe. The international community acts through the UN and that organisation of the true INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY did not impose economic sanctions on Zimbabwe. They have neither condemned Zimbabwe in any form. So it’s very dangerous for you to start making these claims. You can’t tell us that the West is the “international community”. If they are to you, please don’t impose your definition on the rest of us. You need to familiarise yourself with Global Governance.
You shock me when you say Nkomo was a “gangster” for signing the UNITY ACCORD so that people could not be killed. You prefer that people continued dying and disappearing? Did we not enjoy peace after the unity accord? Or you wanted us to take up arms against each other? Why? Who are the nationalists if Nkomo, Mugabe, Dabengwa, and the rest are not?
Kuthula why must you continue to spread the belief that these targeted sanctions are at the heart of Zimbabwe's problems. We all know that from day 1 Zimbabwes currency has been weakening since Mugabe has run the country. What caused the currency to go into freefall was due to Zimbabwes inability to generate forex from tobacco production and hotrticultural means coupled with a drastic increase in the cost of fuel, a commodity that Zimbabwe imports 100% How you can think that targeted sanctions have had a larger impact on the economy than the increase in the price of oil is beyond my comprehension.
I will explain that even if Morgan is a weak leader the majority of Zimbabweans will benefit in the following ways.
1. Sanctions will be lifted. According to you these sanctions have caused the downfall of Zimbabwes economy, so why do you support ZPF knowing that keeping them in power prolongs sanctions. Do you care about Zimbabweans at all?
2. Foreign debt relief and increased aid. It is obvious to anyone that Zimbabwe will be in a position to have it's debt reduced or eliminated with Mugs out of power. If Mugs stays the debt stays. Again why support a party that guarantees a continuation of our national debt? Do you care about the people or the party?
3. Foreign direct investment will increase. Right now there is serious investment in infrastructure in Sub subharan Africa except in Zimbabwe. Investors have no confidence that they will own their investments on any given day should Mugabe and his friends wake up one day and decide to take 51% of foreign owned entities.
These three points are real issues that will improve with the ouster of Mugabe. I challenge you to provide 3 positive scenarios that in your mind will likely play out should Mugabe win the next election.
P.S. I have included a link to a funny video should you find your sense of humor this holiday period.
Kuthula,
You may try to argue that i need to first understand what Economic Sanctions are, like Mugabe trying to fool the whole population saying the Country is under siege from Britain and it's allies,accusing the West of Economic sabotage yet failing to come clean and acknowledge his incopetence and bad governence.I WILL NOT BE FOOLED.
If you and ZPF think investors are stupid,you better think twice before rushing and endorsing Bob as your candidate to lead Zim.Let us agree Kuthula that Zimbabwe as a "sovereignty" state must shut it's mouth up against the West and then choose to trade with those countries you refer as "International Community with population over 80%" which includes Namibia,China, etc and see what's going to happen with our economy.You choose to mention those poor countries because you are aware that they do not care about Human rights and good governance,You know that they support the worst ridiculous regimes of the
World.It shows how an uncaring you are.
Can you tell us what happened to the so called "Look East" Policy?
When i say you are an uncaring and ungrateful person,its not meant to be a personal attack or to cause offence at your integrity,but it's because one wonders if you are aware that these countries you hate so much which includes UK,USA,CANADA,AUSTRALIA and NEW ZEALAND are the few that still provide aid to the pple condemned to misery by zpf.Are you aware that they are home to at least over a million of your Brothers and sisters who have been forced out from their beloved country by ZPF?(this include you in the comfort and safe haven of Canada)
Can you tell me any credible thing which your "International community with over 80% population"
has done to our suffering population except condemning them into further misery by endorsing stolen and fraudlent elections.
You also want to use the intergrity of Nkomo to counter my argument.I never said Nkomo was a gangster.You seem to be aware the reason why Dr Nkomo opted for Unity because you mention that people were disappearing and being killed.Ironic,those resposible of abducting and killing them you also have the guts to call them "Nationalists"I mentioned "gangsters who plunder the economy" Since Nkomo is long dead,does this have anything to do with him?.
You may interprete it the way you like but for me Robert Mugabe is not a nationalist,facts are there to be seen by anyone, unless you come up with a new defination of "nationalists and nationalism"
Happy New Year!
kuthula,Are you aware that these countries you and Mugabe hate th most are the major contributors to The UN budget with the US topping the list in 2006.
From the "true International Community" Namibia,China and their freinds where nowhere to be found on the list of Contributors,Then you expect the West that breathes life to the UN to fold it's hand while international beggars make decision on behalf of their machine,the UN,It is simply illogical.
You also said we enjoyed peace after the Unity Accord! i appeal to you to dare boldly declare that at Barbourfields Stadium or in the streets of Bulawayo.
From 1980 - 1989 zimbabwe`s economy grew by an average 4% per year. Zimbabwe was forced to liberalise its economy by the west who were moving away from socialism.
ESAP was designed by the World Bank(Nhlanhla you may be interested on this point)among other things prescribed were reduction in expenditure for social needs ( in the early 80`s we didnt pay for primary education and primary health care) The world bank demanded that WE PAY. The World prescribed that Measures protecting zimbabwean industries be removed. How does an indegineous firm compete with an MNC like Coca cola,shell etc? The world Bank demanded civil servants be drammatically cut, which saw massive retrenchments which has now culminated in unemployment.
Nhlanhla you mentioned that UK,US,New Zealand etc, are big aid donors to Zim, you may be right but you know why they prefer to "aid" africans rather than allow equal trade practices? If they are so generous as you imply, why are they not simply writing off debts to all developing countries? why do all these countries have the worst descriminatory immigration laws against africans like you? The answer is simple: They dont care about someone like you, a black african - all their policies are designed to enslave you, chain you to infinite debt thru the world bank, IMF. "Aid" is then given on conditions prescribed by the same people who have enslaved you for centuries, the same people you fought to get your liberation, (self-dignity). Aid is more favorable by the West because they can takeit away any minute once the recipient doesnt dance to their tune.
You also made an interesting observation that the western countries have a right to challenge zimbabwe on human rights issues because they are home to over a million zimbos who have been displaced. Not sure about the figure but you are absolutely right that there are so many zimbabweans in these countries. What you dont know is - most of these zimbabweans are living like squalors, simply because the immigration laws imposed by the same westerners make them so. as long as they are not eu citizens (read white), they are not afforded the same rights to work, study etc. They work illegally, when caught they will be sent to court and jailed for "lying", obviously from the fact the employment from asks you if you have a right to work within eu, and for someone to be given the job, they have to tick "yes". So I dont understand your argument that the West has a right to stand up for the "human rights of zimbabweans in zimbabwe", when they dont care about those within their borders.
zimbabwe started moving away from Esap from the late 90`s, a move that infuriated the IMF (by the way IMF is controlled US,EU)and the announcement of compulsory acquisition of farms (around 1500), i think that was 1997 made the hostility even worse from the west. Thats when that Claire Short infamous letter was sent to Hre.
MDC was formed during this hostility period, i think that was in 1999, and it got significant funding from the Westminister fund (the 3 UK main political parties all sit on the board of this fund). The white farmers for obvious reasons also poured in money into MDC.
Dave - do you see now why sanctions were imposed in the first place and why they will be lifted if MDC come into power? It is not because MDC will give us democracy or anything better for the ordinary person, it is because the western countries will take control of the whole economy again. Instead of the old fashioned colonialism where they brought the union jack flag, they will simply do that by proxy.
Eddie Cross, in his maiden speech as economic shadow minister stated that they will reduce civil service from 300 000 to about 71 000 (what will happen to al those retrenched?), they will liberalise all parastatals, privatise school delivery system (what will happen to those who cant afford to pay school fees).
The notorious Zimbabwe Democracy & economic recovery act was sponsored by Jesse Holmes, a keen supporter of Ian Smith.
Nhlanhla I personally think you are too full of emotion at this present time and you also sound a very angry person ( i guess because of the gukurahundi if i`m right)which is understandable but the two must not be mixed together at any point. You run the risk of legitimising another wrong to correct a wrong which could prove fatal in the end. Remember gukurahundi happened in the early 80`s the same time Mugabe was knighted and recieved numerous degrees by the british. We should never allow the West to play the gukarahundi card, because by doing so we are only dividing ourselves which is what they want, then they will "intervene to put house in order". Gukurahundi must be championed by the victims themselves, away from the current problem and without any "input from the west"
Dave,
I am not spreading the “belief that these targeted sanctions are at the heart of Zimbabwe's problems”. It is a widely accepted fact and one that has been acknowledged by business people, politicians and everyone else except YOU. You refuse to acknowledge this clear fact because then it compromises your arguments. Yes, the dollar was on the decline, (not only in Zim but everywhere else). But with ESAP and the sustained “Targeted economic sanctions” it went on a free downfall. So for you to suggest that because the dollar was declining then justifies us to argue that the current state of the dollar is because of the prior trajectory is very deceitful. To restrict the decline of the dollar to tobacco and horticulture shows how narrow your perspective of these issues is.
How can the “targeted sanctions” not have a wider impact when those activities of the economy targeted (currency, trade relations, credit) have a wider reach? Of course you argue along those lines because, like Nhlanhla you restrict “targeted sanctions” to individual sanctions imposed on sect. 6 of the ZDERA of 2001 and disregard sect. 4 and all other clear evidence. There is nothing I can do to save you from your ignorance. If you think you are not IGNORANT, PLSE PASTE SECTION 4 OF THE ZIMBABWE DEMOCRACY AND ECONOMIC REVOERY ACT HERE ON THIS BLOG! This is a challenge. I want to see whether you will have the nerve to expose your lies!!! If you do this you will have a very simple comprehension of what I am arguing. Otherwise right now you confuse yourself and then blame me for your own systematically designed/feigned ignorance.
As you try to rationalise your argument about your weak dictator you show how lopsided you sense of rationality is. It does not mean that if we want the sanctions to be lifted we have to take out ZPF. This is twisted logic. Rather we have to determine whom we want to put in power. We are going to be blackmailed into putting a puppet into power because you and your ilk are going to support further sanctions.
You want to use sanctions as a basis for changing govts. Again this is twisted logic. Zimbabweans vote people into power because they want them and not because the US or UK likes them. If you and Morgan think sanctions are your weapon to power, use them. But let’s see whether you will succeed.
Foreign debt should not be reduced because Mugabe is out. You are so illogical. Mugabe should be taken out because people in Zim don’t like him. Also, the debt reduction mechanism is flawed. Even if we take it as it is, Zimbabwe would qualify under the guidelines. For you to make a unilateral declaration that Zimbabwe won’t qualify is strange (tell us the section that disqualifies Zimbabwe. Don’t just regurgitate things because they were said by Bush, Blair or your neoliberal heroes and other likeminded saboteurs.
Do you know what FDI means? Or you wanted to say foreign investment flows. You might want to do your basic economic definitions. It’s a pity if the investors think the only way they are going to invest in a country is to take over majority shareholding. It’s that surprising sense of entitlement that make people reason illogically.
I can’t provide three things that a Mugabe win can bring. I have one tho: people would have chosen the leader they want. They would have practiced their democracy.
I did not get any video link.
Nhlanhla,
Well, if you are not going to be fooled about the meaning of economic sanctions then expose me for my ignorance. To just invoke Mugabe and then try to sweep away the argument without supporting your case does not help. Ok giving you the benefit of doubt that I am trying to cheat you, please tell us how are economic sanctions defined? Give us the definitions and not just protestations.
You come to me as someone who believes in democracy and yet when we try to exercise our democracy you criticises us. Should we not criticise the West where its due? Is it wrong? Why for instance do you and other people in the UK, NZ, US cry about racism and other injustices if you don’t want other people to do the same? Who should be the judge as to what kind of issues we can criticise the West and where we can’t. Do you see that your argument is turning oppressive and illogical? Don’t trip on yourself. Why do you think that I “think investors are stupid”? Because I don’t give them a free for all situation to exploit our resources? That’s not seeing people as stupid. That’s putting a case of managing investment. Maybe you might show us the stupidity I mentioned?
I am surprised why you say “You choose to mention those poor countries because you are aware that they do not care about Human rights and good governance”. For goodness sake Nhlanhla, why do you say so? Even Dave, the most ridiculous character would not support this position. Nhlanhla, the fact that a country pumps in more at the UN does not make it an INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. You seem to mix so many things in an attempt to bolster your argument and hence in the end you end up saying ridiculous things.
The Look East Policy is working, but not to your satisfaction, of course. But in the obtaining circumstances, it has performed the best the best in obtaining circumstances. I wonder why you equate criticising these Western countries with hating them? Do I hate you because I differ with you? I don’t hate you neither do I hate Dave. I enjoy engaging you and showing your flawed logics. There are so many things that I can point that have been done by the international community. But I will limit myself to one issue. They have prevented the marauding violent Britain and its allies from invading Zimbabwe. Sure they have failed to stop the devastating economic violence brought about on Zimbabwe but they have tried their best in the obtaining situation. You seem to be freaked out about the international community. I did not intend to exalt the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY rather I wanted to show your mistake of likening the US and the West as the international community. And it seems you are angry about that. But it’s important that we get these things right otherwise we lose focus of what we are talking about and lead each other into abyss of ignorance.
You see, you say you never said Nkomo was a gangster. Here, below is what you said, “Matshazi! Do you honestly want me to believe that those pple who signed the Unity Accord are Nationalists”. Is that not what you said? You also say that “Ironic, those responsible of abducting and killing them you also have the guts to call them "Nationalists". What is the definition of nationalist? The fact that these brutal and unacceptable killings happened does not make them less of nationalists. Its one thing to be implicated in such brutal acts and another in defining nationalist. You tend to mix these things in strange ways.
Nhlanhla,
I never argued about contributions to the UN and I am not arguing that they contribute more. But what I am saying is that under the UN all members of the UN are the same. The developing countries have a contribution they make...all member countries contribute to the UN. So you expect the tiny majority to make major decisions that have an impact on the 80 percent of the world population? I fail to understand your logic. Your statement about BF or the streets of Bulawayo shows me that you are a populist who is more worried about popular sentiments than proper understanding of issues. By the way, I have argued this way everywhere and I am not afraid to say what I am saying this at any forum and any street or alley eNjube, Makokoba, B/F Stadium (eSoweto), etc.
Fuirst let me deal with Nancy. You said and I quote,
" ....... it is because the western countries will take control of the whole economy again. "
Exactly what economy are you speaking about? You mean the one where people have to queue to get their own money from the bank? The one where the bank note with the largest denomination cannot even buy you a loaf of bread? Is that the economy you want to protect with our lives? You mean the economy that has our once discriminating citizens reduced to buying substandard Chinese garbage?
The problem with you is that you are an idealist. People like you are better suited to writing books because if you actually tried to implement your ideas they would be a total failure. Like it or not there is a world order. The "white" man as you call him fortunately or not through historical luck holds the cards. As evidence of this why are you and Kuthula so upset about sanctions? If Zimbabwe is so high and mighty why on earth should it matter that members of ZPF cannot travel of do business in the west? You condemnatiuon of the sanctions is proof positive of the power of the west and the lack of power held by Zimbabwe. You condemn the UN saying it is controlled by the US and EU but then say you want sanctions lifted so Zimbabwe can take loans from these very institutions. Kuthula accuses me of twisted logic but your logic and Kuthula's simply do not exist.
Secondly I take issue with the non fact that you present that Zimbabweans living in the US and Canada live in squalor. I for one live very well and I can tell from Kuthula's pictures that he does not live in a cardboard box. I have many friends from home here and many although not rich are doing quite well. Kuthula, do you have any friends from Zimbabwe living in squalor in Canada? Nancy where do you live? Do you live in squalor? I am sure there are many Zimbabweans who are poor in the UK etc but there are also many poor Americans who live here and many poor Canadians and many poor British citizens.
Kuthula it is your turn. Once again you have avoided the heart of my question. When am I going to here what benefit you feel will accrue to Zimbabwe with the re election of Mugs? All you can do is cast doubt on my ascertions that Zimbabwe will receive debt relief if ZPF is overthrown. Let me say that if Zimbabwe were going to receive debt relief they would have done so already.
Also you suggest that it was sanctions and not the fall of the Agricultural industry that put the Zim dollar into freefall, what a joke. Plese present me with any historical figures identifying any forex generated for the country by any of the people affected by the sanctions. I can show you tobacco inflows and flower export figures if you like but I have never seen Forex generated by ZPF inc listed on any GNP projections. Please provide us with this information.
Kuthula, how do you as a journalist just say the dumbest things with no basis in reality? For example you say
"You want to use sanctions as a basis for changing govts. Again this is twisted logic. Zimbabweans vote people into power because they want them and not because the US or UK likes them. If you and Morgan think sanctions are your weapon to power, use them. But let’s see whether you will succeed."
You have spent countless hours thinking of ways to suggest that sanctions led to the downfall of Zimbabwe and then challenge the west to continue using them. Well us members of the civilised world do use sanctions to change governments. This was the preferred method in Iraq until George Bush ruined Iraq with his war. Regime change in South Africa was influenced by sanctions put in place by the west, (I suppose you were against those). Sanctions are currently in place in North Korea and Cuba, all in an effort to effect regime change. That is how the civilized world does things. Whether or not it works is another matter and each country is affected differently but to suggest that sanctions are not a basis for changing a government is simply stupid and historically inaccurate. Sometimes the citizens of a country cannot be assured of a fair election as in aparteid south Africa, so to suggest that the citizens of Zimbabwe can vote in whoever they like speaks to your naivete.
There are really so many things that you said this time that are just incorrect but I think I have given you enough.
Also Please do not forget to give me your THREE benefits that will accrue to Zimbabweans should MUGS be reelected. Let this be your number one priority in your response to me.
P.S.
Your said
"Do you know what FDI means? Or you wanted to say foreign investment flows. You might want to do your basic economic definitions"
Here is a little lesson for you.
Foreign direct investment (FDI) is defined as "investment made to acquire lasting interest in enterprises operating outside of the economy of the investor."
A type of FDI is called "Inward" and is defined as
"Inward foreign direct investment is when foreign capital is invested in local resources."
Obviously this is a case of little Kuthula tryiong to appear more intelligen than your education will allow you to be. Please show me an economic definition that uses the Phrase "foreign investment flows" to describe anything other that FDI.
It doesn't pay to be a smart pants Kuthula.
Please excuse my numerous typographical errors, as this is not an exam I was not fully concentrating on typing but instead on the ideas and sometimes my wireless keyboard skips a letter.
PS Did you see the video I sent the link to? Here it is again just in case.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IP2R0rWmytA
On Nancy... Well, seeing how Zimbabweans screwed up their own country, I would also not allow them into my country. Zimbabweans go back to your mudhole!
kuthula said:
"I am not spreading the “belief that these targeted sanctions are at the heart of Zimbabwe's problems”. It is a widely accepted fact and one that has been acknowledged by business people, politicians and everyone else except YOU. You refuse to acknowledge this clear fact because then it compromises your arguments"
Eish kuthula - everyone else in the WORLD knows that Mugabe and ZPF is at the heart of Zim's problems, except YOU and Mugfabe and ZanuPF and a few Zim 'businessmen'. This is the CLEAR FACTS!
From the Zim Financial Gazette:
RESERVE Bank of Zimbabwe (RBZ) governor Gideon Gono was last week invited to the ZANU PF special congress to explain the biting cash shortages paralysing the country’s economy. He did not hesitate to tell it like it is.
Gono — one of the few technocrats, who speak their minds — fingered senior ZANU PF officials as being behind the cash squeeze, which is conspiring with the acute shortages of basic foodstuffs to dampen the excitement that normally characterises the festive season.
“It’s not ordinary members of the party (ZANU PF) who are doing this. It’s the top officials because as we can all see ordinary people have no money,” he said.
There was more to come for those who thought Gono would not dare go beyond generalising issues.
“Another problem is corruption, corruption, corruption … this country is losing a lot of money because of top officials,” said the RBZ chief, declaring he knew who the “cash barons” are.
To illustrate the severity of the cash leakages, Gono revealed that the RBZ could only account for $2 trillion out of the $67 trillion pumped into the system the previous day. The “cash barons” siphoned $65 trillion out of the system, it is presumed.
While Gono’s conclusion is quite valid, he should not dismiss accusing fingers pointing at the RBZ.
The appetite for cash has grown exponentially and the printing machine at Fidelity Printers and Refiners cannot run fast enough to catch up with rampaging inflation. Instead of readying itself for this eventuality, the RBZ has been caught napping.
Discounting the three million Zimbabweans estimated to be in the diaspora, the $65 trillion the central bank is referring to translates to not more than $7 million per person, which is not enough to cater for an individual’s daily needs.
The bank would need to inject quadrillions into the system in order to satisfy the burgeoning demand for cash. Unfortunately, it cannot do so without aggravating inflation, estimated to end the year at 20 000 percent.
The biggest challenge confronting the RBZ remains that of restoring public confidence in the national payments system, which is failing to cope with the upsurge in cheque and electronic transactions.
Instead of making life easy for clients, the Point of Sale and the Real Time Gross Settlement systems are now a thorn in the flesh. As the country sinks deep into a cash economy, the survival of traditional banks is now in serious doubt, as people are now finding it convenient to keep their money stashed under the pillow.
Admittedly, the challenges are beyond the central bank, but then Gono is the only technocrat in government showing the courage to confront them.
But instead of sharing the little cash available and ensuring the party’s survival at next year’s tricky elections, ZANU PF bigwigs are competing to empty the cash vaults. If only they knew that they are digging their own mass grave.
It cannot be members of the opposition who are only too aware of the huge price they can pay for bending the rules.
The question, which begs an answer is: why are these cash barons not behind bars? Is it that they are above the law? Could it be that the powers-that-be are guilty of complicity? If the police can arrest the Attorney General, who is the final prosecuting authority, why not these cash barons?
The cancer of corruption has been left to spread for a very long time and it is time the powers-that-be apply chemotherapy before it becomes life threatening.
As early as 1988, the then ZANU PF secretary-general Edgar Tekere raised the alarm, but his courage earned him a sacking after the firebrand politician failed to substantiate allegations of massive corruption by top ministers.
By standing for the truth, Gono has touched a raw nerve and it won’t be surprising if the Mafia in ZANU PF were to bay for his blood.
The crackdown on corruption has been applied like a spider’s web, which catches the small insects and lets the big ones through. Those in ZANU PF caught in the corruption dragnet, it is said, are merely sacrificial lambs used as pawns in the bitter ruling party succession wars.
In 1997 the Chidyausiku Commission unearthed the obscene looting of the War Victims Compensation Fund by officials in high places but nothing was done to bring them to book.
The political heavyweights went on to ransack the VIP Housing Scheme with impunity. They have also helped themselves to multiple farms contrary to government policy of one-man, one-farm. Now they are selling the diesel sourced at ridiculous prices to sustain their farming operations and yet they claim “Land is the Economy”. What rank hypocrisy!
Unfortunately, it is the ordinary folk paying the heavy price for the flagrant abuse of public office and widespread looting of government resources, through exorbitant taxes, tariffs and rates.
Government should descend heavily on the culprits. As it is, the powers-that-be are only toying with the symptoms. It just doesn’t work.
Pumping cash into a rotten system would only address the symptoms for a while but the root cause would remain for as long as inflation maintains its upward trajectory.
Nancy,I have not for a moment asserted that the West or "Whiteman" loves us Africans because of the aid they has provided to us.Let us be realistic Nancy,they have done much better to the pple than corrupt ZPF.
My problem is with pple who want to absolve zpf from the crisis that has affected our Country and are trying to find a scapegoat.
Who do you blame for Esap,it could have been authored by the West but who graciously accepted and tried to implement it.Did the West hold a gun at Mugabe's head and forced him to take it?Then this strengthens the belief that has been going around since Independence that Mugabe was a puppet of the West.If he was an intelligent and visionary leader as his disciples want us to believe,he would have forseen this tragedy coming.Who do you blame for creating an economy which is not Market oriented?
Do you believe that the huge compensations to War Vets and the involvement of Zim in DRC war had a profound effect on the decline of the Economy?
What do you say about Land invasions that destroyed the agricultural sector which was the backbone of the economy? The list is endless.
Iam an African,therefore i do no appreciate self styled Pan-africanists trying to lecture me about attitudes and relations between Blacks and Whites because many African dictators and their blind followers has manipulated this as a tool to suppress and silence voices of Democracy.
You say immigration laws of the West has been designed to discriminate Africans only to cater for EU citizens(i guess you are referring to UK Immigration laws)Yes,it's true.Here you are bringing a very important issue.Look,these pple put first priority and care for their own.The EU realised how poor their former Communists and Eastern European brothers were and then created a system which was going to rope them into the mainstream of the strong European economy and they are now far off better.Let us come closer home about this immigration issue.
Nancy,what do you say about most Zimbaweans citizens of foreign origins including Malawians whom Mugabe referred them as "totemless" pple during operation "Murambatswina" (drive out trash)who have been left stateless be cause of zpf immigration laws.What happenned to Trevor Ncube?
What do you say about immigration laws of South Africa and Botswana,Do you define that treatment of our brothers and sisters on those countries as "Humane"? It does not matter as long such treatment between Black on Black?
Nancy,for us to expect strangers to treat us fairy and with dignity and respect we need to first appreciate one another as blacks through our actions.
I do not condone racism,i for one has been both a victim of tribalism and racism,i both detest these two inhumane crimes.
I know a lot of Africans with immigration problems here in the UK but i have never seen one of them begging,they are far much better than our brothers and sister
back home,they are even improving themselves by studying.
If we fail to be honest and truthfully in dealing with crisis back home and try decieve the world
then it means we are further plunging our population on a deep pity,the world has nothing to loose.I also disagree with you that the cause for justice on Gukurahundi issue must be championed by victims themselves.Since the Majority in Zim were not victims so you mean they have to fold their arms because it was not their problem? And how are the victims going to achieve that because they have been denied space to air their grievances or to talk about their affliction.IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERY RESPONSIBLE CITIZEN OF THIS WORLD TO ADVOCATE AND FIGHT FOR JUSTICE AND EQULITY ON BEHALF OF THE OPPRESSED.I would appreciate your advice on this matter.
Wish you a Happy New Year.
Kuthula,
You can try to bring class on this argument by denouncing pple with different views from yours as "ignorant" and "ridiculous" but this will not solve the current problem which has left my grandmum starving back home yet with a large sum of money under her pillow because the stores are empty.
I once challenged you to prove to us "without reasonable doubt" as to why you still prefer zpf to be in power and i had hoped your argument will be based on facts and evidence based on zpf's perfomance on social and economic aspects of the country for the past 27years but the response was a spat of vernom designed to scare and intimidate me from further pursuing the issue.
As you are also human,i understand that you will be sometimes emotional when dealing with us on these matters but "calm down brother" I for one i credit you for creating this space,I aknowledge that you have provided what the herald and The Chronicle has denied and deprived us-FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION!
The question is still hanging,Who is the culprit behind our misery,ZPF or West? what is the solution then? Must we show the West the middle finger gesture then throw the whole weight behind our dear leader Cde R.G.Mugabe?
What about other presidential aspirants bringing fresh and new ideas on the table?What about the issue of democracy?is it fine for opposition leaders and their supporters to be bashed and tortured because they are oppossed to our own dear leader Kim Jong-in RG.Mugabe?
Yea,The West has also committed acts of criminality not only against Zim but to the entire universe,But i still want clarification,are the sins committed agaisnt pple back home by who ever in government using state resources acceptable?
Ngiyabuza Matshazi!
Nhlanhla,
Ngiyaphuma kodwa ngithe ngisuke ngiphendule umbuzo wakho owodwa.
"are the sins committed agaisnt pple back home by who ever in government using state resources acceptable?" NO. Why do you ask this as if I advocated for sins to be committed against anyone?
Listen to what Dave said - a thing that people have always disputed. Here now is the fair and privileged race asserting their position "Well us members of the civilised world do use sanctions to change governments". What do you say about this Nhlanhla. Could this be Kuthula who is just daydreaming?
Kuthula once again twisting my words to suit your own false beliefs. I quote
"Here now is the fair and privileged race asserting their position "Well us members of the civilised world do use sanctions to change governments"."
You fail to disclose that I highlighted that Bush the American president falls outside of the "Civilized World" that I spoke of. Yes Civilized nations use sanctions while other simply use war.
I also see that you have failed to provide us with evidence that pre sanctions members of ZPF were bringing in copious amounts of forex through their business activities thus keeping the economy strong. Also you don't seem willing or are simply unable to come up with 3 immediate positive outcomes that Zimbabwe will experience should Mugs prevail in the coming elections.
I fully support your right to espouse whatever beliefs you may have and I don't expect you to change simply because I or nhlanhla disagree but I definately expect that you should be able to present the reasons for your beliefs instead of simply ranting. It's important that you back up your information with verifiable facts. I also think it is fine that you inject your posts with as much or little venom as you wish, Zimbabweans in general are witty and intelligent enough to absorb these barbs with the humor in which they were intended, let's not change our ways and become some sort of watered down politically correct forum.
You must never compare the welfare of people in the West and those in Africa. The two are at different developmental stages. Revisit history and you will understand why it is so. Being African does not automatically qualify you to view events from a pan-africanist point of view, Abel Muzorewa was an African, Morgan Tsvangirai is an African et al, neither do i view myself as pan-africanist but rather as someone who is self-aware.
On the subject of immigration - refer to the Big Boss response above, she/he has given you an honest answer. On African countries having unjust immigration laws towards each other, I agree with you 100% on that one, but then these african countries you mentioned SA, Botswana et al have not accused zim of "human rights abuses". My problem is with the so -called champions of human rights UK ,NZ, Aussie et al accusing Zim and yet behind the scenes they are putting in place draconian immigration laws to disadvantage those they claim to "liberate". Recently Uk has just passed a law that will require someone like you to deposit £1000 as surety if your immediate family want to visit you. I`m not sure Nhlanhla if you`re speaking from ignorance or naviety, but I have not known any illegal immigrant being able to attend college unless if you mean high school. How does an illegal immigrant fund her/his education when that person is not allowed to work? On another note, you say you have never seen anyone scrounging in Uk, maybe it depends on your defination of the subject. people work (mostly illegally) from hand to mouth and as a result more often than not, they are abused as those who employ them are aware of their status. which is why Diana Jeator is now lobbying the Uk govt to show some compassion for zimbabweans - we are talking of thousands of zimbabweans who are desperate in UK. The fact that you are not aware of what is happening around you should not be used as an excuse to call a spade a spade.
war vveterans compensation - personally I do not see anything wrong with compensating those who fought for our freedom, it is the norm world-wide. Where you are in UK, they have got Remembrance day(poppy) etc and they all got compensation for their sacrifices. What I objected to was the manner in which the process was done which ended up being another Willowgate (abuse of the system).
On Land Reform -I totally agree with the idea of resettling landless peasant farmers who had their land stolen at the barrel of the gun by the colonialists. I disagree with the method in which it was done and also disagree on some recipients of the programme. But some may argue that since the Uk had proved being a dishonest partner in the deal what else could have been done? Not sure on that one. But yes, Land to the people (the landless peasant farmers and those with skills and expertise in agriculture irregardless of COLOUR).
On the Gukurahundi subject, I read recently Dumiso Dabengwa saying the gvt then didnt know how to deal with the dissidents who were almost everywhere in Matabeleland and therefore resorted to witch-hunting, others say dissidents never existed it was a myth, others say Mugabe confronted an armed rebellion that intended on wiping out shonas, so many points of views. The only fact I know is there were many innocent lives that were lost during this horrific period and because I was very young at the time, I personally didnt witness anything neither was I in that part of the country at that particular time. This therefore disqualifies me from debating that subject with you. I hope you will respect my position. I`m quiet happy to debate other issues i`m knowledgeable about.
Nhlanhla
8:44 posting is my response to you,sorry didnt manage to put my name on lol
Dave,
I am not avoiding your question. The people will benefit in re-electing President Mugabe by exercising their democratic right. I am not sure whether you want me to answer and say that the people will lose Western aid by re-electing President Mugabe. That’s also true, but as a free people, I believe their democratic right to choose a leader is a benefit. If I am not direct with your question then I don’t know how else I could be. I think the problem with you is that you see everything in dollars and cents and also through Western interests. What you feel you want to see from the Zimbabweans is what you think are “benefits”. The people of Zimbabwe have their own “benefits”.
Agriculture failed to recover because of the squeeze in the economy. If there were still lines of credit, international development assistance, etc, then agriculture would have not gone down drastically. More resources would have been channelled there. Substantiate this statement with my full quote “Also you suggest that it was sanctions and not the fall of the Agricultural industry that put the Zim dollar into freefall”.
I have covered the issue of you the “civilised world” using regime change policy to change govts. Pity! You say “Kuthula, how do you as a journalist just say the dumbest things with no basis in reality? For example you say "You want to use sanctions as a basis for changing govts”.
While you accuse me of being dumb for suggesting the regime change policy, you go on to confess that indeed you the “civilised world” use these sanctions to illegally remove govts. Isn’t it ironic that in one breath you contradict yourself?
To wrap up, you talk about THREE BENEFITS that will accrue to Zimbabweans should they remove President Mugabe...these are your own benefits that Zimbabweans don’t identify with.
You say, “little Kuthula”. You have a problem with White Supremacy. One time you are talking about the “civilised world”, the other time you were talking about how you, the civilised rationalise things and how stupid Kuthula from Africa does not understand this process. Now you are at it again belittling me. These thing have to be taken together because they demonstrate your White Supremacist attitude. FDI implies taking control of a business and making decisions while portfolio investment means trading of specific assets and intermediate products such as capital, debt or equity, technology, and does not give the investor control of the business. I think I am also to blame for allowing you to try and cloud issues. I should have been more specific as opposed to using foreign investment flows. If your confusion arose from that then I profoundly apologise.
Dave,
What has the video you sent me got to do with our discussion except to parade the kind of Zimbabweans that gives you kicks?
You enjoy those Blacks when they ridicule themselves in front of you with incoherent acts. Haven't some of us not provided "entertainment" to u our "colonial master" by ridiculing ourselves? Its nothing new.
Enjoy it Dave!!!!!!
Nhlanhla,
Why do you distort my statements? Where did I say that I “prefer zpf to be in power”? Where? Show me. I get discouraged when people argue like this. Be accurate when you attribute words to people especially me. Maybe some people don't care but I do. I want to be correctly represented. Now I am afraid to debate because you are going to come up with something else that I did not say. But for progress sake I will try to hazard explaining and will always point your gross distortion of my statements.
What I am saying is that despite your feelings about ZPF, the reality is that a majority of voters currently prefer ZPF. “Majority of voters” does not mean me. I don’t vote. If you can’t accept that reality then you are living in fantasy land.
You ask a very pertinent question when you say “The question is still hanging, Who is the culprit behind our misery,ZPF or West? what is the solution then? “
Both are guilty to a certain extent. If ZPF cannot deal effectively with corruption as Gono has said repeatedly then we are self defeating. However, that does not mean the West are angels. In fact they have also applied economic sanctions. But for some reason Nhlanhla you refuse to acknowledge this fact. The effect of your denial is that we have concentrated all our discussion efforts on the sanctions at the expense of all else. And hence enabled you to twist the debate and make it seem like we are in denial that ZPF has a hand in the Zimbabweans situation. Don’t have such an approach to open discussions Nhlanhla.
Yes, we should show the West the middle finger if it’s deserving or any other person for that matter! Why do you want us to make it seem its gross sin to show them the middle finger if they are messing up? And why do you think that showing the middle finger to the West is synonymous with “throw[ing] the whole weight behind our dear leader Cde R.G.Mugabe”? Why do you have gross dichotomies Nhlanhla?
What’s the fuss about democracy and new leaders? Did ZPF not have its congress recently? Did the supposed aspirants not choose President Mugabe? You can only speculate that this was like this and like that, but the official word we heard from ZPF and those very aspirants was that they wanted Mugabe to stand. What contrary evidence do you have that you got from Mnangagwa or Mujuru?
And why do you think the opposition should be bashed?
Its funny that you have finaly accepted that the West have “committed acts of criminality not only against Zim but to the entire universe”. What do you say about those criminal offences commited by the West? Should we pay a blind eye to them because we are focusing on ZPF?
I ANSWER AGAIN IN CAPITAL LETTERS. NO ONE SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO ANY FORMSS OF SINS. I AM TOTALLY OPPOSED TO THAT AND THE PERPETRATORS SHOULD FACE THE LAW. On the same breath, do you realise that genocidal economic sins are taking place in Zimbabwe through economic sanctions? Nhlanhla tell me this... do you think there are economic sanctions in Zimbabwe? Regardless of your answer, do you support economic sanctions in Zimbabwe?
Dave,
You say, “Yes Civilized nations use sanctions while other simply use war”.
Who are the OTHERS? Does Edward Said and the OTHERISATION/Orientalism ring a bell to you?
Yes I am not going to provide the information you require: “I also see that you have failed to provide us with evidence that pre sanctions members of ZPF were bringing in copious amounts of forex through their business activities thus keeping the economy strong”.
The reason I can’t bring this information forward is because you want to be cunning and deflect us from seeing the real picture but MIRAGE. Your subliminal message is that the economic sanctions are against TARGETED INDIVIDUALS. It’s wrong and mischievous on your part. The economic sanctions are biting not because President Mugabe does not go to Europe, but because PARTICULAR ECONOMIC ACTIVITIES ACROSS THE WHOLE ECONOMIC SPECTRUM HAVE BEED PUT UNDER SANCTIONS. FDI and portfolio investment have gone down because of political reasons, balance of payments support has been frozen, international financial institutions have cut lines of credit. These are the TARGETED ECONOMIC SANCTIONS. It has nothing to do with how much ZPF members under sanctions are bringing in. For all we know, they were not bringing in any substantial forex. Maybe you have the data to suggest that are national accounts were provided by private ZPF individuals and then now that the international financial institutions are not giving these people any money then we are caught in between. Do you see how ridiculous your reasoning becomes. It should not even be suggested by someone who claims superiority.
It’s a pity that you will always find me “ranting” because for all the facts and reasoning that I put forward in the best of my ability, you won’t view them as reasonable as long as they are not to your liking.
Yes, let’s not be watered down but also at the same time let’s not be abusive and liars in the name of freedom of expression.
Hi Nancy,
Its been a while. Its so sad that you have to go to great lengths to try and straighten deliberately distorted logic!
Look at how the debate has shifted...from a mere confession by Peta about the ineptness of MDC and Morgan Tsvangirai to focusing on ZPF. Yes ZPF neeeds to be scrutinised, so is MDC. And that is what you Dave and Nhlanhla are strongly denying indirectly. You are throwing everything you can lay your hands on just to deflect focussing on the weak leader called Morgan Tsvangirai and his MDC. How then do you think they will improve if you dont want to criticise them? Or maybe you prefer the status quo? This is way beyong comprehension. Anyway, just continue your line of argument and bury your heads in the sand and pretend that everything in the MDC is ok and that Morgan Tsvangirai is an effective leader. You are going to mourn perpetually.
Kuthula.Ngiyabonga MfokaBaba,Uyayibeka indaba,Anyway,Ukufunda akupheli,Although they are some things i disagree with you but i have learnt and benefited one or two things from this tense dialogue.
As for now iam off for a holiday and i will be back on this blog when ever they is a new subject.
Wishing you and your visitors of this blog(including DAVE)a happy and prosperous New Year.
God bless you.
Kuthula you are totally avoiding any discussion of the issues. You are hung up on perceived insults, calling me racist or simply throwing up smokescreens to shift the focus from your own pathetic arguments.
You still don't have any advantages that would come from reelecting Mugs. You say the people would express their democratic right??? Would this not occur no matter who is elected? Are you suggesting the election of any other candidate would not be an expression of democracy ?
Enough with this racism nonsense, African are black people so of course anything negative said by anyone against an African will be perceived as racist. I will not post a picture or my name because my views could definately be detrimental to my family that lives in Zimbabwe. I believe this is one of the reasons that you will not critisize ZPF, you are obviously beholden to them in some way and you don't want any negative reprocussions on family who may live back there. Rest assured I am black with my roots in Masvingo.
The video was funny and if you have no sense of humor that is your problem, the audience in the video were black Zimbabweans and the comedian was a black Zimbabwean and yet you felt the need to be insulted, that says more about your state of mind that anything else. You obviously have issues about your race because you constantly accuse others of being racist or self hating if they happen to hold a different opinion to you. If you have to play the race card it shows your arguments are extremely weak and you lack the facts to present a powerful rebuttal.
Lastly the failure of the agriculture was initially blamed on poor rains, now you want to blame sanctions and tomorrow you will blame something else. The truth is that the majority of the new farmers did not have the experience to be commercial farmers, they did not have ready foreign customers and they had no credit facilities with the banks. I am sure you are smart enough to know that you can't just give a person land and expect them to grow tobacco successfully. Could I take a person of the street and expect them to be an engineer? Aren't you in school to learn how to successfully ply your trade? Blaming sanctions on the failure of the farms is just asinine.
Why are you so hooked on this civilised world comment? Taking it a little too far, but then again it is typical of you to pick out one word or sentance and ignore the fact that you were wrong. The issue was if sanctions are a legitimate way for nations to affect regime change. To answer your question civilised nations are countries that use peaceful means to affect change for the good as was done against South Africa to end aparteid. It's odd that you are against this method, I remember just a few weeks ago you were angry that Britain had planned but failed to implement a military invasion. Civilized is not a static idea, nations are not on one side or the other a nation can act in any number of ways at different times in history. This is why I said the civilised world would use sanctions and did not list any specific countries.
To AmaSupporters e"Bosso",Ngilifisela umnyaka omutsha laden with success and happiness.NEXT SEASON IS OURS!
What about the Reds!Indeed "You will never walk Alone" Inter Milan Here we come! A HAPPY NEW YEAR TOO.
Worry not, for the days of Dalglish,Barnes and Grobbelaar look set to Return.
THIS IS ANFIELD!
Nhlanhla,
Usuke walibala abe Orlando Pirates!!!
Dave,
I am hooked on the civilised world because they are not acting as civilised as they are supposed to. And you shocked me that you use unconventional and illegal means to oust governments when there are tried and trusted legal means of changing governments. I can’t believe that you are still publicly supporting the regime change policy. Are you not the one who has consistently talked about DEMOCRACY? Over the months we have been discussing, you have hardened your position from preferring democracy to this wild style regime change policy. I must say I managed to push you to exposing your true self: an undemocratic, violent (regime change supporter), White Supremacist and intolerant person. You have thrown away your supposed democratic and progressive credentials!! But I don’t blame you. It’s just that you were naive about the challenges of dealing with a plural public, whom many would not agree with your own viewpoint. And once that happens you don’t know how to be inclusive and still negotiate your views, rather you become aggressive and hateful!!
You see! The statement below shows how a BIG LIAR you are. “It's odd that you are against this method, I remember just a few weeks ago you were angry that Britain had planned but failed to implement a military invasion”.
NEED I SAY ANYTHING MORE DAVE? The posting is still in the front page of the blog and people can read for themselves to find out how big a deceiver you are? They don’t need to believe what I say...but what you write!!
Dave,
Look now, you accuse me of failing to raise issues. You feel I am avoiding questions just because I am not answering your questions in a manner you like. This is outrageous. Well, in that case I have to accept that I am avoiding questions because there is no way I am going to answer questions in the manner you want me. First, you are a confirmed racist and you don’t want me to point out that fact, though it’s very clear. Secondly, what I perceive as benefits for the Zimbabweans is not what you think it is. As Zimbabweans we don’t need “your benefits”. Our benefits are getting the satisfaction of electing our own desired leaders. If you think we are twisted-as you always believe-so be it. We don’t get benefits by being armtwisted to vote for so and so in order to get debt relief. If this is not an advantage to you then I am hopelessly failing to answer your question!
I am not suggesting the election of any other candidate would not be an expression of democracy, - it would be - but what I am saying is that we have to choose those whom we like and Tsvangirai is not one of them. He is hopelessly weak and is defeated, in whatever way, by a candidate that you feel is a disaster. What does it tell you then of Tsvangirai as a leader?
Well, I might not dispute that you live in Masvingo but that does not make you a racist. And you just want me to take your word that you are Black? I was going to do so had you not lied to me on several occasions in the past.
The only way I feel beholden to ZPF is to give them praise where it is due much to your annoyance. And I will continue to do so where its due such in the land reform...and you could continue to speculate my reasons for giving them due commendation. By the way, I will praise Tsvangirai where its due. Hail him, in fact, should he promise to undertake monumental social justice projects such as land redistribution.
The fact that the video was done by Blacks and had a Black audience does not mean that it is ok and we should all rally behind it. Does it mean that just because Tsvangirai is black and is supported by many Black Zimbabweans we should approve of his ways financed and meant to serve the interests of the West? I don’t play a race card, I am merely stating facts as they are. Why are you fazed by the race card? Is it because you identify with some of the things that I highlight about your racial conduct?
Yes, we blamed the poor rains, and the economic sanctions for the decline in agricultural productivity. Is that a lie? Both issues contributed to the demise of agriculture. You want us to be afraid of stating facts? If there is another factor tomorrow we will mention it too.
Why do you talk about tobacco, a poisonous crop? Why not think that it was good to decongest people in the rural areas and create grazing land? Or talk about maize production or the integrating people in mainstream economic activities. I can’t wait to see the TOTAL STOPPING of growing a poisonous crop such as tobacco.
Nhlanhla,
Hatshi lami ngiyabonga mfowethu. Ngiyafunda lami nxa ngikhuluma labakwethu. Kuhle sibili.Kuzakwenza ukuthi sanelise ukuthi sakhe isizwe sethu loba silemibono eyehlukeneyo. Be rest assured that we are moving on to another more interesting topic soon.
Ngithemba iKhisimusi yakho ibenhle njalo ngikufisela umnyaka omuhle olokujabula okukhulu lempumelelo.
Dave,
In Canada we are sensitive about diversity. I hope you believe in X-mas. If you do, then I hope it was wonderful. I also wish you all the best in the new year. I wish good health for you and joy.
I look forward discussing with you all the public matters affecting our country.
This is not to say I am off. This blog is open 365 days 24/7.
Qha bo!
Ngiyakuzwa Nsizwa yakithi,Nanxa nje
ngihamba laMakhosi ezikaMotaung kweleMzansi kodwa ngiyaqondisisa ukuthi AmaBhakabhaka atsho ukuthini kithi abe"Bosso"-SINGAMAWELE!
Ngakho ngithi"Happy New Year also to you Mabhakabhaka kanye liziMpofana zasePhefeni i Kaizer Chiefs.
Ngiyabonga wena we Sizwe sikaMatshobane.
Kuthula thanks for the well wishes over the holidays, i know it won't come as a shock to you but I do not believe in god, I do however respect your right to believe in whatever you want and expect the same from everyone else. In that vain I hope you enjoyed the holidays as well.
I never once said anything about rejecting democracy in Zimbabwe and I would like to see elections that are free and fair in Zimbabwe. Unlike you however I do not claim to know the will of the majority and would not do so. The question however was not about elections but wehter or not sanctions are justified. In your opinion or what i perceive to be your opinion is that elections have been free and fair in Zimbabwe. I do not believe that they have been fair as many people have been intimidated into voting for a specific candidate or punished when they voted in a way they were not expected to.
Do you think sanctions were justified against South Africa?
If you do then you cannot say sanctions against Zimbabwe are illegal and unjustified. I do support sanctions and challenge you to prove that they are not targeted.
Credit line have been rejected because Zimbabwe has no viable way of paying back these loans. I don't know if you have ever tried to take a loan but the ability to borrow is not a right, it is something that must be earned through performance. Zimbabwe, led by ZPF has shown that they are not capable of implementing strategies to increase economic growth. Blaming policies from 20 years ago is convenient but not very practical. The fact is that there is probably no leadership in ZPF with the foresight to lead the country to economic prosperity.
You may perceive Morgan to be a weak leader but guys like Gono, Mugs and others who are currently RULING have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do not have the ability to run the country.
Lastly I really couldn't care less if you think I am not black or a racist or whatever, my color or disposition has absolutely nothing to do with the failure of ZPF to run the country. In fact I think you are racist towards white people, your suggestion that I am not black is a suggestion that my opinions are somehow not as valid as yours, it's an attempt to discredit what I say. Maybe that is what they teach you in Canada. Regardless maybe you should do a little self examination into your own racist positions.
You ask why I mention tobacco? c'mon Kuthula, stop speaking emotionally and speak with some thought. Tobacco is an export crop, one that is produced at a high quality in Zimbabwe. I totally agree that tobacco is a poison and I would never smoke but there are people who do want to smoke and I would not deny anyone the right to do an activity that is perfectly legal. The forex that this crop can generate would go a long way in allowing us to purchase medicines, machinery and books to educate or youth. So yes I would definately grow this crop.
By the way, I did not say I lived in Masvingo, I just said that is where my roots are.
Kuthula one of the many things Zimbabweans are good at is laughing in the face of extreme hardship. If you cannot see the humor in the video then I am sorry but obviously many of us Zimbabweans do see and appreciate the humor. At the end of the day if we can't laught at ourselves then we will live a very sorry existence. Sorry you didn't get the joke but I found it quite funny, not everything has to be so serious. Lighten up, you should be happier, you are living in the lapse of luxury in Canada.
Nancy,
Thank you for your response,Anyway i was not intending to be on the Computer until after thefestive season but i have decided to respond to what i deem "Deliberate Lie" intended to deceive pple visiting this blog.
You ask "How an illegal immigrant fund his/her education since they are not working.I did not know whether to cry or laugh after reading this statement.Are you living in Britain Nancy?
Even the UK GOVERNMENT IS AWARE THAT MOST ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE WORKING that is why Rights Group and other MPs are pressing for Government to allow them to work so that they will reduce illegal working as these pple are already paying tax.
In 2006 Gordon Brown the then Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that they was £5,5billion unclaimed from tax credits as a result of illegal immigrants not claiming it back.PEOPLE WORK NANCY!
I know a lot of hard working Zimbabweans who have funded their own education in Colleges and Unis while illegal working.It depends on what you want in Life Nancy.
For this £1 000 you talking about,it is not designed for me but for every non-EU Citizens which include white South Americans and each Country has the right to tighten its Borders.Do you expect us to violet UK Immigration laws just because Mugabe has an axe to grind with UK?
hAPPY nEW YEAR!
Hi Kuthula
Happy New year, its been long time sure. Talk about multi-tasking- if there was justice on this planet, i should have got one -ha ha ha!
You may think people
deliberately distort logic but sometimes it is innocent ignorance or a complete failure to test a hypothesis. Ever wondered why some "highly educated people" dismiss the fact that zimbabwe is under economic sanctions?
Kuthula the msg above(8.34)is from me
Nhlanhla
you`ve got some points, but you get yourself muddled up, contradicting yourself along the way.
Tax Credits are meant for families bringing up children. You MUST be an EU national or have permanent residence to be eligible for it. Those with student visas, work permits or any other stay with a limit on it are not entitled to receive any form of public funding (this would have been stated on their visas), save for use of NHS and limited funding for those waiting for asylum decisions.
I ẁould never imagine Gordon Brown "encouraging" illegal immigrants to claim tax credits, when labour gvt is/was so much under pressure to deport illegal immigrants from Uk. Can you post the link where you got that info from if you dont mind?
UK universities now charge around £9000 per yr for "international students", i find it very difficult to believe someone working illegally can afford such a huge sum of money, add that living costs of about £7000 per annum, plus extended family back home. You are talking of someone earning not more than £20K per annum gross, Hymmmmm, cant see how that sum adds up. I can understand if that person manages to convince the uni authorities to be charged home fees which is around £3k per annum, but then that would amount to fraud which might see someone being prosecuted and jailed for the offence.
Get your facts right Nhlanhla.
Here is hoping you enjoyed the festive celebrations and as we africans always do - you managed to put a smile on one or two pple back home!
Nancy if these people are in the UK illegally do you think they have any qualms about commiting fraud by convincing Unis to charge them at the local rate?
How do you know how much Zimbabweans are making? Not being in the UK I have no clue what people are making there, is 20k pounds a lot of money?
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