Even a standard silly person could understand that President Mbeki was talking about the electoral process not the socio-economic situation. There is an electoral process that is still ongoing and to declare a crisis before that process is exhausted is nonsense. If at all there is a crisis, its the law, which allows for all these processes to happen. And ironically, all those who declare "crisis" are the very same people who use legal processes as their arguments. YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. Either choose law or chaos!!!
But we know that they know what President Mbeki meant, its just that they choose to numb their common sense just for political ends.
The crooked thinking will be reflected in the crooked outcomes in our efforts to resolve the situation in Zimbabwe. We bark wrong trees and engage in wild chases.
You harvest what you sow!
Let's get more reasonable and focus on real issues.
ANC Today says...
Speaking to journalists at the United Nations on Wednesday, President Mbeki said his comments had been made in response to a specific question about whether there was a crisis in the electoral process. "The story that I said there is no crisis, I do not have the slightest clue of where it comes from. The question was about the elections - it was not about the socio-economic conditions in Zimbabwe or anything like that," he said. More...
21 comments:
Mbeki is a joke.
It has been over 2 weeks and no results have been issued. ZEC has allowed ZPF to skirt electoral law by agreeing to recounts that were not requested within the legal time limit. In the run up to a possible runn off the government has made political gathering illegal. The incumbent has president has basically stopped the release of election results.
This is not a crisis? Mbeki is a joke, his own party has voted him out so he will soon be relegated to history where he belongs. The events in Zimbabwe over the past 2 weeks are unprecedented. The will of the people has not been heard and is being silenced.
When we should be buying fuel and food for Zimbabweans instead ZPF is purchasing weapons. Not for the defense of our nation mind you but instead to murder our fellow Zimbabweans who want to see change in zimbabwe. China is more than happy to provide the means by which we kill each other. These weapons must not reach Zimbabwe, if we are ever to return to Zimbabwe this weapons must not be used to begin a genocide in Zimbabwe.
The parallels to Animal Farm are uncanny and scary. This will not end well.
It is a normal electoral process. Where evidence is provided of cheating or bribery, or errors that affects the results, a recount should be done. When the result is finally announced and there is no clear winner, the law provides that there should be a run off. ZEC should not be pressured by any one. It should do a perfect job. That is not a crisis at all. Those who wish to see a crisis should look elsewhere, not Zim. The crisis will only be in their minds.
Enough of you nonsense.
I fail to find sense in someone who argues that a miscalculated or falsified count is fair.Thats complete nonsense.
Exactly anonymous. You've made my point.
So a recount is the only fair thing to do. Thats common sense. Its good that Dave have also seen that.
They can recount all they want but you can't recount without an initial count can you? How do you advocate a recount when you don't even know the first result?
Obviously Zanu PF was illegally informed of the results beforehand and they refused to let those initial results see the light of day.
A recount without releasing the initial count is fraud and probably falsified, something you just said was unfair.
Mugabe obviously lost the initial election with Morgan getting more than the required 50%.
If the initial results had shown a Mugabe win they would have been released, if the initial results showed Morgan winning with less than 50% the results would have been released with a run off pending which is what ZPF is pushing for now, the only reason results would not be released is if Morgan won the election outright.
What are you talking about Dave. The recounts are for those results that have been previously announced and the presidential elections have been under verification. You confuse a lot of things and try to make them true so that they can fit into your eternally negative view. Remember you also said "Mbeki is a joke". Well, yes maybe to you and your ilk, but to some of us he is not. SADC has expressed confidence in him including his rival Zuma.
But you, and your Western brotheers, with your usual supremacy self have dismissed him. Like Mashie said, you can sing for all you want until the cows home. Mbeki is the man! He is our brother! Tear yourself apart with your Gordon Brown who is trying to save his faltering skin by using the Zimbabwe rhetoric. Come elections and will be mince meat. His elections will not need verification because he is trailing well behind.
Kuthula once again I have to prove you wrong but I am used to it.
On April 22, 2008 at 4:39 AM (see above) Anonymous said the following and I quote
"It is a normal electoral process. Where evidence is provided of cheating or bribery, or errors that affects the results, a recount should be done. When the result is finally announced and there is no clear winner, the law provides that there should be a run off."
Notice he said "run off" Kuthula, we are not referring to the parlimentary recounts that are currently underway. You may want to consider reading the thread on your own blog before you start inserting your silly little opinions. Surely if this dolt/Anonymous can introduce a hypothetical situation then you should be able to follow.......right? Kuthula with all of your communication classes you would think you knew that communication is a two way street, please read our comments before responding or you will end up as confused as you are now.
As for your joke of a brother Mbeki, he will also soon be replaced, next year in fact.
Tear yourself apart with your Robert Mugabe who is trying to save his faltering skin by using the Colonial rhetoric. Come election results he will be mince meat. His elections needed verification because he is trailing well behind.
You surprise me Dave because you want to prove me wrong based on what ANONYMOS said. I am not referring to him/her but what I read in the paper. Besides, is ANONYMOUS talking about the presidential elections alone or he is talking about the election procedure. I am specifically talking about the presidential. You can't wait to lay your hand on the privilege your enjoyed...the re-birth of Rhodesia. Its the people who will choose their leaders and the one they choose we will follow...but not blindly!
Dave, get it right here, the recount was done on the parliamentary constituencies where the count was disputed. They did not only dispute the votes for the MP but also for presidential, with a belief that if there have been irregularities or errors on the MP's count, the same is most likely to happen to Presidential and council.So ZPF requested a recount for its candidates in those areas where there have been evidence of wrong doing, and MDC did the same.
It is like a marathon where one athlete takes a short cut, before he finishes the race, evidence is provided that he has cheated. Will it be sensible to insist that he should be declared the winner first and then check on the route he has taken later, and yet evidence that he would have cheated was provided well before the race was finished.
Dave, I fail to really get where you are missing it here. It is so clear and simple. Mere common sense.
Anonymous we were discussing specifically the presidential elections if not why did you say and I quote
"When the result is finally announced and there is no clear winner, the law provides that there should be a run off."
At the time you wrote this the paliamentary results had already been released so the only results you could have been speaking about were the presidential results, in addition you also mention a run off, as far as I know only the presidential vote has a run off, not the MP or anything else. So maybe you were confused but you were indeed talking about the presidential vote at the time. Now you want to switch and say you were speaking about voting in general, your own words do not support that.
To Kuthula you said and I quote
"What are you talking about Dave."
I then proceeded to tell you what I was talking about, I told you in no uncertain terms I was responding to Anonymous and his opinions on the PRESIDENTIAL vote. If you were responding to something you read in the paper then why did you ask what I was talking about? I was not the one who wrote the article was I?
Anonymous you talk of "mere common sense" and yet you display none, why is that? You can barely keep track of what you have written. You used an anology of a race. Here is a better anology, a real life example if you will, not the bowel movement of your mind that you provided us with.
When Ben Johnson cheated at the olympics he ran the race and was declared winner and we saw his time. Once it was discovered that he cheated the win was disqualified. This is what should have happened in Zimbabwe, the results should have been announced and the winner declared, if wrongdoing was discovered we could have easily gone back and conducted a recount or run off. I have never seen a race where the winner is not declared until after the results of drug tests etc have been analysed. Your analogy does not fit the situation.
Lastly Kuthula I never actually lived in Rhodesia, the good times I enjoyed in Zimbabwe were spent with Mugabe as the leader of a wonderful Zimbabwe. If you lived in Zimbabwe during the 80s and 90s like I did, you would know what I am speaking about. Your attempt to inject your racism into this discussion is not appreciated though, please refrain yourself in the future. The ugly shadow that was Rhodesia has been gone for 28 years now and yet you still find it necessary to bring that up? Maybe you are afraid Kuthula, but let me assure you, you will never have to be ruled by whites as long as you live in Zimbabwe, however please enjoy being ruled by the whites who control your adopted homeland of Canada, you seem to love it there. You are so funny Kuthula, you have brought your child into the world in the Whitest country I can imagine and then you have the audacity to accuse me of longing for Rhodesia?
Why did you leave Zimbabwe and why have you not returned? This site should be called "Unpacking the Hypocracy".
Dave, the question is at what stage was the anomally discovered? If you discover it before the end of the race, don't you disqualify straight away. Your argument is that the announcement should go ahead even with the knowledge of wrong doing, then reverse it. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE DAVE.
At what stage did they discover that Ben Johnson had used banned substances, before, during or after the race?.
Are the urine samples taken before or after the race?
Do the results of those samples come before, during or after the race?Answer these questions first then your confusion with the comparison with the vote recount may be cleared.
You also seem to confuse the announcing and the recounting.Your argument seem to be that you can not recount before you announce. Which is not it, you can count, recount and recount again before announcing, to make sure you announce an accurate result.What is important is whether there are grounds to have such a recount.\
I think this time you got it. Is it clear? I can still explain again and again.
Let me ask you a question. How do you know there was a problem with the initial presidential count? How would ZPF know there was a problem in the first place? In any election the results must be released so that each party can examine and see where there errors are. How did ZPF object without knowing the results?
Are you saying that ZEC unilaterally decided to not release the results? What evidence was there of anomalies? Who found these anomalies. ZPF was able to complain about the parliamentary results only after they were released and a recount was/is being undertaken. If they had to wait for the results of the parliamentary elections before they could complain why should it be any different for the presidential?
As a student I remember receiving a test back from the teacher after being graded and being given the opportunity to object to any errors that I found in her/his grading. I NEVER accused the teacher of making a mistake before I saw the results of the grading. this is what you are saying has happened.
The fact of the matter is that you advocate the stealing of this election. There can be no ifs ands or buts, you support ZPF and feel they should be able to do anything even if is beyond the law in order to find a result they want. Just admit it so we can move on. I am beginning to tire of your poor logic.
Dave, I think your argument is due to a lack of understanding of the process. Errors may be detected during collating and verification of the votes.Some wrongdoing may not even be detected at those stages, like if the official doing the adding up is bribed. During those processes any Party that contested will be represented by an agent.
You did not know how your teacher marked your paper because you were not involved in the marking. If you were involved in the marking and you discover during the marking that the marks you scored on the questions are not being correctly added up, Will you not point it out and ask to have it corrected before your mark is graded. One can only ignore such mistakes if they think the mistakes are going to work in their favour.That is your position Dave, that "I know that during the process five plus five was giving them fifteen and some times giving them six, yet you argue that we want to have whatever they come up with, then challenge it later.If that works in your favour definitely you will not challenge it. What we are saying here is very simple clear all quiries and disputed processes, come up with an undisputable and more accurate count, then announce.This does not only serve the interests of one party, but all contestants.I bet my last dollar Dave, if you were marking your exam paper together with your teacher, you were not going to allow him to deny you marks which you will have scored and allow him to proceed and grade your total score.
Dave, you must be boasting that Zimbabwe has one of the best, transparent electoral systems, with an independent electoral body, that do not just release results because Gordon Brown is demanding them and losing patience, even before they have completed their job.
How would you know anything about how errors were found, if they were found or if Zanu PF pressured ZEC with threats of violence and jail if released not condusive were released. Anonymous you have no clue. Zanu PF was insisting on a run off immediately which means they knew the results long before they were released. If Zanu PF was calling for a run off the information they were looking at should have been released.
Later, only an idiot would continue to discuss with you.
Dave, One Polling Station Rimbi Primary School in Manicaland province indicated on the V11 forms that President Robert Mugabe got 612 votes, but the V23 form that was forwarded to the National Command Centre was showing that President Mugabe got 187 votes. Such a very clear and straightfoward anomaly does not need a rocket scientist to detect. Even the simplest of minds can see this for exactly what it is without alleging that ZEC was threatened with violence by ZPF to withold the result until the anomaly is investigated and corrected.
Dave you do not have a clue at all. Its obvious and no one is denying it that the contestants knew what they had got, because they participated in the whole process, that is why ZEC asked every contestant to bring their own results so that they can compare with theirs, before announcing. Zanu PF, Langton Towungana, Simba Makoni had their results almost similar to ZEC except for MDC who ZEC challenged to give their source of the results they were claiming, which they dismally failed.
Dave you seem to be very ignorant of the whole electoral process in Zim. Do a little bit more about informing yourself before you make baseless and ill-informed arguments.
You must learn to see things as they are, not as you wish them to be.I will give you another chance before I dismiss you for what you call those you fail to convince.
You will not be labelled an IDIOT for seeking enlightenment.
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