By Kuthula Matshazi
The Zimbabwean elections are now over and the winners are happy while the losers are seething. There is need for national reconciliation at this important time of our nation as this will bring about healing and help us move forward as a nation.
Unfortunately the welfare of one section of the losers, the ordinary people, is going to get worse thanks to the violent economic sanctions that are being cheered on by those losers that have relatively deep pockets and can afford to eat three or more meals a day. I would call these people endowed losers. More...
53 comments:
You keep on referring to 'illegal' sanctions. Do you understand what is meant by the term 'illegal'.
For your benefit and enlightment, Meriam-Webster's definition of the word illegal
: not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also : not sanctioned by official rules.
The so-called sanctions were instituted legally and lawfully by democratically elected sovereign governments against members of Zanu-Pf leadership, who are in fact ruling Zimbabwe illegally.
So please stop using the term 'illegal sanctions'- you are only advertising your ignorance and inability to understand rather simple concepts
Thanks for the definition. The economic sanctions are "unlawful, illicit; also : not sanctioned by official rules" of the international community against another member of the international community.
You would have done a good job if you had looked for another definition.
I wonder who is displaying ignorance especially if you dont understand global governance or international relations!!!
Kuthula,for god's sake you live in Canada and you have a nerve to call anyone living in Zimbabwe losers? It's you sitting on your high horse which was provided by Mugabe who is the loser. You have no country, your child is being raised in a foreign land, and the odds of you returning home to a comfortable life are nil while Zimbabwe is ruled by your lover Mugabe. Look at you crying to the west to end their legal sanctions, ha ha ha, I can't wait until the stolen funds stashed outside the country are frozen, slowly but surely Zanu PF will become the Baath party of Zimbabwe. Mugabe may have won this latest battle but the war continues. I wish there was a way for you to be deported from Canada.
Rich talking about “illegal” sanctions from a guy whose boss shouts at any opportunity about the “sovereignty of Zimbabwe”. Shame that the ‘sovereign Zimbabwe’ cant feed their own people. Shame that the people need to be fed by the ‘enemy’.
We now have to add “Zero understanding of international relations’ to the long list of issues that kuthula do not understand, such as
Zero understanding of Democracy
Zero understanding of Economics
Zero understanding of Managing a country
Shut down this ‘forum’, kuthula, and go back to Zim. You are boosting the afro-pessimistic image normal people have about africans.
Why do you make up wild allegations which are lies? Where did I say all those people that live in Zimbabwe are "losers"? Just cut and paste that sentence. Don't come into this forum with your own thought and then impose them on me.
I don't see what is wrong with living in Canada or with Gordon Brown in the same house but also criticise him for the policy differences. How do you justify those people that live and reap rewards in Zimbabwe...the Western corporations, and yet they criticise the govt. Should they also go back to their countries. Do you realise that your logic has limitations?
You are so mean, vindictive, oppressive and very intolerant. You want me to shut down my forum because I express views that you don't agree with. Engage them or simply just refuse to engage with me. It does not help to abuse me because I hold very independent thoughts. I expect the same from you so that we engage each other on issues and not on our prejudices and biases.
You should be abused because you hold very stupid and dangerous thoughts.
You should be abused because you try to defend a dictator that is killing thousands of people, and wrecking millions of households.
You should be abused because you are misusing the generous democratic institutions of Canada to promulgate and defend the undemocratic and despotic actions of Zany-pf and Mugabe against your own people.
We do not want a bigot like you in Canada, leaching as you do on the Canadian taxpayer, and I am starting an action to have you removed from Canada.
We in Canada do not owe anything to any African. Get used to it.
Here is a direct quote from Kuthula where he call people living in Zimbabwe losers, not once not twice but 3 times in this paragraph alone. Kuthula is a pathological liar and will say anything convenient to his current position regardless of his past statements.
"Unfortunately the welfare of one section of the losers, the ordinary people, is going to get worse thanks to the violent economic sanctions that are being cheered on by those losers that have relatively deep pockets and can afford to eat three or more meals a day. I would call these people endowed losers."
At no point did I say your forum should be closed I said you should be moved back to Zimbabwe to live with your sponsor R.G. Mugabe. Instead you sit in Canada and call those who want and voted for change "losers". Shame on you.
Even though I don't respond to threats, I also don't like them. So dont think you can threaten me because then I'll stop discussing with you and delete all that you write. Engage me in debate not threaten me.
Its so funny that you paste that sentence with a straight face. I said "those losers that have relatively deep pockets". One, I mean those people with deep pockets supporting sanctions and whose party the MDC lost. This is different from calling Zimbabweans in general as losers. It is true that these people I talk about are losers. Did they not lose an election? What do you want me to do or say? Say they are winners when they are losers. What's wrong with you? You dont understand a straight forward communication.
Maybe you are too hooked onto your ideas and prejudice to pay attention to other people's ideas.!
Get over yourself and the silly threats you throw around.
Do you know whether I am taxpayer or not? You see, you say things that you don't know. I eat my money and not anybody else's. If you are used to eating other people's taxes or looting in far lands don't think I am like you.
Kuthula, who won the elections? And why are the winners not appointing a cabinet but begging the 'seething losers' totalk to them?
Legally speaking, President Mugabe won. It is the political legitimacy that is under dispute. These are two different things which you should not confuse as a layperson who does not understand politics fully.
Note that I said ONLY UNDER DISPUTE because MDC might agree under the Government of National Unity arrangement to recognise Mugabe and then automatically make him a legitimate winner of the elections legally and politically.
Why is he not appointing on the strength of the so called legality? Does it not follow then that the so called lacking legitimacy has an upper hand. To me there is a fine line between legitimacy and legality.
Again if you can call the targetted sanctions 'illegal' because they are not according to international rules, why can't you call Mugabe's win illegal as it also not according to international rules of running democratic elections? You are not a balanced political analyst as you choose to use legality and legitimacy when it suits you and your masters.
Everyone in the world knows that Mugabe was not legally elected as president (ok not everyone - some russians, chinese and a few africans have difficulty understanding concepts such as legally, democratically, human rights, etc).
in politics you can have legitimacy and lose an election or the other way. So when that happens then there has to be solution to be made. That's not strange or something new.
Well, if you insist that he was not legally elected then I can't help you. Believe what you want.
legitimate:
1 a: lawfully begotten; specifically : born in wedlock b: having full filial rights and obligations by birth
2: being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false
3 a: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements
b: ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right
4: conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards
5: relating to plays acted by professional actors but not including revues, burlesque, or some forms of musical comedy
synonyms see lawful
Legally:
1: of or relating to law
2 a: deriving authority from or founded on law : de jure
b: having a formal status derived from law often without a basis in actual fact : titular
c: established by law; especially : statutory
3: conforming to or permitted by law or established rules
4: recognized or made effective by a court of law as distinguished from a court of equity
5: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the profession of law or of one of its members
6: created by the constructions of the law
Mugabe is neither legally nor legitimately the president of zimbabwe.
Mugabe gained control illegally and illegitimately by using intimidation, violence, fraud and abusing his previous powers as president.
Mugabe was not elected by the majority of Zimbabweans, and is therefore a dictator.
Dictator:
1 a: a person granted absolute emergency power; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome
b: one holding complete autocratic control
c: one ruling absolutely and often oppressively
Are you using English dictionary definitions or you are discussing from a legal and political point of view. I want to make it clear because there could be variance in intepretation if you take that route. I suppose while tempted to base your arguments on the English dictionary you also need to take a multidisciplinary approach to this issue and also take the specific codes that guide the matter under discussion.
You said "There is NO sanctions against Zimbabwe". What do you make of this:
Archived Financial Market Report visit www.coronationfinancial.com
By Lance Mambondiani
A German firm, Giesecke and Devrient (G&D), supplying the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe (RBZ) with paper for the printing of bearer cheques has been asked to halt business with Zimbabwe because of concerns it was helping prop up the Zimbabwean government. This comes after the EU had moved to toughen sanctions on the country after a bid to pass United Nations sanctions against Zimbabwe's leadership was vetoed by Security Council members Russia and China. The paper is used to print bearer cheques (temporary bank notes introduced as a direct result of hyperinflation and lack of foreign currency needed to print proper bank notes). The last proper bank note printed was the Z$1,000 back in 2005, today that amount does not buy even a single matchstick.
According to recent reports, every week the German security printers, G&D delivered to the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe 432,000 sheets of banknotes for stamping and printing at Fidelity printers in Harare for which they received more than US$763,000 per order. Each sheet contains 40 notes and production is often at the country’s highest denomination. G&D has printed Zimbabwe’s notes since the 1970s. It is impossible to assume that this withdrawal of service at the behest of the EU would not impact on the country’s banknote reserves nor incense the Harare authorities. The country is already suffering from a chronic cash crisis fuelled largely by hyperinflation and in part by black market tunnelling. This seemingly insignificant act in Germany may have far reaching consequences for ordinary Zimbabwean trying to access cash back in Harare.
As far as I know the people who voted MDC were not themselves running for any office so no they are not "losers" in any sense of the word.
The Zanu PF governemnt has been judged to be illegitimate by all countries. The elections were judged to have been neither free nor fair. Thus there is no dispute, Mugabe and his cohorts have essentially carried out a coup, as such any sanctions or punishment or impediment placed upon them is not a sanction against Zimbabwe or the Zimbabwean people but instead a message that will will not support an illegal government who stole and election.
When a murderer is put in prison you don't say that is an unfair sanction do you? Zanu PF and their cohorts murdered over 100 people and must be punished. If that means denying them the ability to print money to support their lavish lifestyles then so be it.
This is a desperate and uninformed analysis you make. All countries did not say that the current govt. is legitimate. Where did you get that?
They are losers in the sense that their party lost. Ig Highlanders lose then I am a loser as well. If you dont subscribe to that fine, but that's how I used it. Don't refuse me to say something when that is not cast in hard stone. I choose to use it that way.
While the elections could have been not free and fair, ceratinly within the laws of Zimbabwe they were legitimate. If you can't understand that then I don't know how you can understand. If you choose to have another reference point other than the laws of Zimbabwe then you are entertaining futility.
The issue about sanctions is incoherent. I really wish I could discuss that but I see that you can even hear yourself rumbling. I can't help you in that regard. I think if you want to engage people and leave wiser you've got to leave your attitude of even listening to yourself whiile you rumble.
Read this from The Independent:
The reverse side is the way the West tried to turn its biggest diplomatic embarrassment in the June 27 elections debacle into victory by calling for UN sanctions, where it again failed. The June 27 presidential election run-off cannot be "a sham" merely because Morgan Tsvangirai withdrew from the race at the last minute.
The law is clear that the ZEC could have declared Mugabe the automatic winner at that moment. That would have been perfectly legal but a sham because Tsvangirai got more votes in the first round.
Mugabe’s advisors appear to have seen through the ruse. It is, therefore, disingenuous to harp on the March 29 result as if Tsvangirai had rejected the June 27 run-off outright.
We expect outsiders who want to help to exert a positive influence towards a political settlement than to use Zimbabweans as pawns in their private wars. Whimsical references to the March 29 election result risk being exposed for the chink they are in the MDC’s armour, not strength.
Joram Nyathi is the deputy editor of the Zimbabwe Independent newspaper.
In terms of the Zimbabwe election laws, the runoff election should have taken place 21 days after the presidential election. This did not happened.
The Zimbabwean parliament ratified the SADC PRINCIPLES AND GUIDELINES GOVERNING DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS
(Adopted by the SADC Summit, Mauritius, August 2004), and as such, is the law in Zimbabwe.
2. PRINCIPLES FOR CONDUCTING DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS
2.1 SADC Member States shall adhere to the following principles in the conduct of
democratic elections:
2.1.1 Full participation of the citizens in the political process;
2.1.2 Freedom of association;
2.1.3 Political tolerance;
2.1.4 Regular intervals for elections as provided for by the respective National
Constitutions;
2.1.5 Equal opportunity for all political parties to access the state media;
2.1.6 Equal opportunity to exercise the right to vote and be voted for;
2.1.7 Independence of the Judiciary and impartiality of the electoral institutions; and
2.1.8 Voter education.
2.1.9 Acceptance and respect of the election results by political parties proclaimed to
have been free and fair by the competent National Electoral Authorities in
accordance with the law of the land.
2.1.10 Challenge of the election results as provided for in the law of the land.
The Southern African Development Community (SADC) observer mission has announced that the process leading up to Friday's one-horse Zimbabwe presidential run-off elections did not conform to its principles and guidelines governing democratic elections.
Therefore, kuthula, according to the laws of Zimbabwe, mugabe was neither legally nor legitimately elected as president.
With all the rhetoric and waffle in the world, you cannot change this simple fact: mugabe is not the legal or legitimate president of Zimbabwe.
SADC ELECTION OBSERVER MISSION
(SEOM)PRELIMINARY STATEMENT
PRESENTED BY THE HON. JOSÉ MARCOS BARRICA MINISTER OF YOUTH AND SPORTS OF THE REPUBLIC OF ANGOLA
AND HEAD OF THE SEOM ON THE ZIMBABWE PRESIDENTIAL RUNOFF AND HOUSE OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY BY- ELECTIONS HELD ON 27 JUNE 2008
CONCLUSION:
The pre-election phase was characterised by politically motivated violence, intimidation,
and displacements.
The process leading up to the presidential run-off elections held on 27 June 2008 did not
conform to SADC Principles and Guidelines Governing Democratic Elections.
However, the Election Day was peaceful.
Based on the above mentioned observations, the Mission is of the view that the prevailing
environment impinged on the credibility of the electoral process.
The elections did not
represent the will of the people of Zimbabwe.
I hope you are following the events and you will find out that Mugabe is the President of Zimbabwe and he is going to be the President.
You might take out all the "evidence" but the fact will not change that Mugabe becomes the president. The sooner you accept this, the better.
Yea, i suppose you are right on this one.
It also proves that most zimbabweans are idiots, you included, and the sooner the world accept this, the better.
Stop all aid to Africa!
Cde Robert Gabriel Mugabe is the President of the Republic of Zimbabwe, after securing 85.5 percent of the valid votes.
The people of Zimbabwe are not idiots, but they can not surrender their birthright in a silver platter. The land shall never go back to former colonial masters. Tsvangirai was very much willing to serve the interests of Bush and Brown and Zimbabweans realised that, and gave him a thorough bashing at the polls.
Zimbabwe's economy is not doing well because of mainly the actions of Morgan Tsvangirai and his principals.
Mugabe is a true democrat, hence he is working on an all inclusive gvt. We do not know where Tsvangirai will fit. Lets have a look at his CV.What qualifications does he have, What job is he trained to do. His experience at Bindura Nickel Mine might be of value, but only to the level of Mine Foreman.He wants to be in gvt, may be Minister without Portfolio, or Rural Housing.
Gee, thanks for proving my point about idiots.
You know, this may strike some people as out there, but, more
black Africans have died as a result of the outright brutality of Robert Mugabe than under Ian Smith.
Initially I was the problem and then now its the Zimbabweans and then Africans and lastly Blacks!!
Rising food prices are putting millions of people in East Africa at risk of severe hunger and destitution, the UK-based charity Oxfam has warned.
Successive droughts, war and poverty have put an estimated 9 to 13 million people in the region in urgent need of humanitarian assistance, it says.
Oxfam should approach Mugabe and Mbeki for help. Mugabe said: “There will be no European hand here”.
Let africans feed their own children. african solutions for african problems!
Kuthula, plpease leave Canada, you are using resources and occupying space that I would prefer a Canadian used. Just as white Zimbabweans have no right to Zimbabwean land you, your wife and child should leave Canada's resources alone. You come to our country and take resources meant for real Canadians. Please leave and return to your home in Zimbabwe.
From the shaft of a Nickel Mine to Head of State. Tsvangirai will have broken records. He will have to go into the Guinness World Records. But that will only happen in his dreams and his fellow idiots, who do not know how much is a majority. 85,5 percent of the valid votes is what constitutes majority. Get that, one of Tsvangirai's classmates.
Kuthula,
If you still have contacts from the townships and rural areas, please get intouch with them. Maybe you might learn the difference between what your President R. Mugabe preaches and what he does to get 85.5 versus MT's 9.x and Spoiled's 5.y.
If you can't. I wish you had the money to visit Zimbabwe for a day or two.
Thanks to anonymous for taking you head on quoting exactly what you wrote on losers.
I think you must have seen that Anonymous got it totally wrong about losers. What I wrote and what he said were completely different. Secondly, you might have realised that I have not been responding because if I realise that the discussion is not genuine but has undertones of hate and racism I fail to engage anyone. What can I engage them on? I would rather stick to issues. If we are discussing about an issue on the constitution of Zimbabwe, it is futile for me to answer someone who goes on to disregard what it says and then finally accept it, but sign off with a racist remark. So keep talking to yourself/selves until you start engaging in issues addressed by my articles. Your inferences will not draw me to discussions. Instead you'll go on and on talking to yourself.
It is very much amazing the level of hypocrisy demonstrated by people who support MDC T or who are sympathetic to MDC and Tsvangirai. They claim to value human rights and fight for that cause, but on the contrary they are busy fighting for and wishing deportation to a person exercising a universal right of free speach, a right to express oneself without violating anyone's right. These people are not civilised at all, and they do not belong to the civilised world.Our views may differ, but a right to express them must be defended. They think they have got a monopoly over the space outside Zimbabwe.Living outside one's native country does not strip one of his/her rights.MDC T supporters should take heed, we will criticise anything that we feel deserves criticism, and there will be no boundaries to that, Canada, US, Australia, UK, New Zealand etc.
You hit the nail on the head. But as usual, its futile to try and engage these hypocrites. It is interesting that the very same people are shouting about Zimbabwe when they are away from there. they want change in government and yet they don't go to vote. Even if they had merit in what they are advocating, it is undermined by their own situation and hypocrisy. You can't tell one person not to do something that you are exactly doing. What hypocrisy.
I have a paper to finish and will not waste my time on these hypocrites and bitter people.
4th July was one of the great days of my life,Not because of the Americans
celebrating their Independence,NO!But watching our own Mkhokheli Dube making fun of David Beckham when The Revs defeated LA Galaxy 2-1 in LA.
Truelly,this boy is magnificent,i take this opportunity to use this Blog to celebrate his achievement.
Mfana Ka SekaThandi,I wish uYihlo was alive and see how far you are now.LowerGweru and Bulawayo is proud of their Son.Can't wait to be in Massachussetts on the 30th of August for the same fixture.
KuBaba UMatshazi labaNtwana,lisaphila kodwa?Inkosi ilibusise.
While I cannot condone the personal insults that have been hurled at Mr.Matshazi and though I dont agree with his views , he is indeed entitled to air his views without being threatened.
As much as we might dislike what he writes , and what we perceive to be his tacit support for the Mugabe regime , it is in bad taste to threaten him with deportation and to attack his innocent young child.
We must stick to the issues , instead of becoming vitriolic and bitter, morseo on a public forum.Think of it in this respect , Mr.Matshazi is brave enought to engage people using his real name, while the anonymous can launch attacks under the guise of anonymity.......That is indeed hypocritical.......
To the issue of who is a hypocrite ,i.e, he that is living in North America in relative safety , and those living in Zimbabwe under a continued state of violence and intimidation , and worst of all murder.......Mr.Matshazi in his writings appears to be skeptical of the MDC Ts sincereity , in fact over the years he has written very scathing criticism of Morgan Tsavangirai.In contrast he has been very soft on criticsing Mr.Mugabes leadership and tenure in office , which has been the bone of contention with many of Mr.Matshazis critics........
I believe if we are to encourage a debate or dialogue with Mr.Matsahzi ,we should accord him a measure of civility and dignified conduct.That being said, one would hope that Mr.Matshazi in turn would be more critical in his analysis of events , and appreciate that the crisis in Zimbabwe today is in no small part the fault of a political elite that has lost accountability to the most important entity - the people of Zimbabwe.
PS. I am known to Mr.Matshazi and have had very heated debate with him over the years..........
4th July was one of the great days of my life,Not because of the Americans
celebrating their Independence,NO!But watching our own Mkhokheli Dube making fun of David Beckham when The Revs defeated LA Galaxy 2-1 in LA.
Truelly,this boy is magnificent,i take this opportunity to use this Blog to celebrate his achievement.
Mfana Ka SekaThandi,I wish uYihlo was alive and see how far you are now.LowerGweru and Bulawayo is proud of their Son.Can't wait to be in Massachussetts on the 30th of August for the same fixture.
KuBaba UMatshazi labaNtwana,lisaphila kodwa?Inkosi ilibusise.
Asengamhlophe ejaheni lako Dube. Kasabangalethuba lokulibona liperformer.
Uxolo Mfowethu ukuthi nya okwesikhathi eside. Two things. First, I was writing my Research paper for my Masters which I finished and handed in last Friday. It was rigorous but quite interesting to write. My topic is called "Uneasy Relationship: Comparative Advantage, Liberalized Trade Rules in Agriculture and developed countries farm subsidies, and the effects on African farmers". I hope to share it with you.
Secondly, there was no one to discuss with. I would not sacrifice my limited time to engage this racist who was ranting.
Well, I might add another point, I have not been actively writing because I am now being vindicated...almost every day to the extent that its no longer of any use to be discussing anything. I think the greatest vindication that I am waiting for is how people will be seriously affected by the new neo-liberal economic policies coming. It was futile for me to try and argue my point without any tangible reference point. Now its about to happen and people will see why I criticised the MDC's neoliberal economic plan.
Anonymous, Thanks for your very well reasoned comments. Sorry I don’t know you because I have so many people coming on this forum as ANONYMOUS. You raise interesting points though.
First, I must say that I am critical of events and it is the reason why you engaged me. The fact that I focused on neoliberalism economics and its violence and the land should not be the reason for you to say I did not criticize ZPF. But to some extent you are right that I did not criticize ZPF as much as you would have liked. The reason is that my philosophical discussions about the land reform and neoliberalism would be distorted and mixed with issues that I would not be addressing in the article and then as a result be distracted my main argument. When I am talking about global trade rules, people would start telling me that I am Zanu PF. I can’t be blamed for people who can’t focus. Or if I talk about the MDC’s RESTART document, which is neoliberal, people – without a clue of the neoliberal theory come and accuse me of being ZPF. I can’t help that situation. I can’t blame ZPF for redistributing land because I subscribe to a very large extent to the way it was done. I have mentioned that I don’t subscribe to one man two farm policy which pockets of both private and public figures engaged in.
Also, I will always criticize Tsvangirai for as long as he is guided by RESTRAT or any other person who is set on following the neoliberal path. I am not the first in the world to criticize that. Even the pioneers have attested to its violence and need for reform. What has that got to do with being soft on ZPF? Does ZPF have neoliberalism as its guiding economic philosophy? So how can I criticize them when they are not making it their guiding principle? My areas of interest are the global economy, International development, global governance, public policy in Economics, international trade. I seek people with intellectual stamina to engage me in these fields and we apply them to Zimbabwe. Not to force me to join the ZPF CONDEMNATION CLUB. I don’t want to join that club. Besides, we have seen that it’s a club that does not think clearly. And I must emphasize that I chose my words carefully.
It took a decade for the ZPF CONDEMNATION CLUB to understand that the Zimbabwean solution can only be through negotiations. They destroyed the country through every possible weapon one can think of with the support of the West. Ironically, they claimed moral high ground while they put their relatives through unimaginable suffering. They lied and refused to think. They denied that there were sanctions and yet 10 years on, MDC accepts to discuss a document that acknowledges the sanctions.
I look forward to the implementation of the new government and then we can talk to people in a more reasoned manner.
Well, as for this racist who was threatening me to hell with him! I don’t like people who make silly threats. I did not have time for such an idiot!
Now that I have finished writing my research paper for my Masters programme I look forward to engaging in debates once again.
I must also add that in the spirit of the new national undderstanding I hope we will foster this new healing and convergence.
Ah.....Mr.Matshazi ! You tackle many issues in your response ,but at this point you sound less rabid,compared to your previous responses to the others.
For reference sake let me call myself Anonymous1 , so that we can have continuity to this dialogue.
Lets overlook the racist rhetoric and the threats and try to measure our understanding of the fundamentals and the interpretation there of.
There is no dispute in my opinion that Zimbabwe needed to have a land redistribution process ,but where we will likely have variance is the method employed to achieve this goal.If you recall the Old Man (Joshua Nkomo) spoke quite unequivocally about the need for land redistribution.
You speak of one man two farms,I am inclined to agree with you that it is the ideal that every man and woman who is willing and able to farm should be given opportunity and support to do so unfettered.I regeret to say that in the last 5-6 years since the land re-distribution program kicked into high-gear , there are still many women without land in their own name.The question that begs is....are women not considered worthy of land ownership , yet its a proven fact that the bulk of Zimbabwean peasant women do the most work on land.....
Another pertinent point arises which perhaps I can link it to your anti-capitalist argument.Is it not the political elite in the then ruling party (Zanu-pfs status in this regard remains unclear since they lost their majority)who have gained from the land redistribution program......And further to this, have they not violated your one-man,one-farm principal......
Mr.Matshazi , it shouldnt matter whether BUT hwat we need to take into serious consideration, is that we now have an elite class of citizens who by accident of history happen to be black,but now own several tracts of farm land - who are now the new black capitalist landowners.It seems that one unequitable and unjust system has been replaced by an equally unjust one........We need to ask ourselves if the life of the ordinary man and woman has improved between 1960 and today re:land ownership and quality of life....
You imply IMF and ESAP programs ,that the govt. of Robert Mugabe adopted in the early 90s led to economic ruin.But where is the accountability on the part of the political leadership ,surely Mr.Mugabe with several economics and other degrees knew what he was getting the country into.How can you continue to have faith in a political entity that has presided over the economic affairs of the nation for excess of 28 years , and still hope for a miracle from them........
My position on sanctions is nuanced ,I dislike their negative effects on the ordinary person , and to the economy as a whole.But Zanu-pf should have seen this coming a long time ago....perhaps if these negotiations taking place now in Pretoria were conducted way back in 2002 , a lot of suffering and pain could have been averted.MDC chose the politics of confrontation , Zanu-pf obliged them by digging in their heels........
At the end of it all , the people of Zimbabwe are the real losers in this political game of chess......People want jobs,effcient healthcare,food to eat, education for their kids.In the meantime , politicians are locked up in secret meetings bickering about who is best fit to lead........
Thank you. Yes, maybe now I sound less rabid because of the unity talks that have infused rationality in people. And also you will realize that I always sound less rabid to those who have common sense. I don’t just wake up one day and become rabid For what and to whom? I am not crazy. But if being rabid is necessary then I do not hesitate. I defend my position rabidly.
Yes, Nkomo and everyone talked about land. There is none who denies that. In fact, the reason why Nkomo was marginalized by the west from power is this very position on land. What mechanisms would Nkomo done that are better than South Africa’s? Or Namibia’s? Both are slow and frustrating – exactly the same way Zimbabwe’s was going. So your argument about Nkomo is unclear. You sound as if we have been saying that its only ZPF which was agitating for land. But there is no one who said that. Maybe the nearest that we said is that ZPF is the only party that had the guts to do undertake the land reform. In any case, it is one thing for Nkomo to speak unequivocally and the other not to have done anything when he was vice president. The only thing he did was to fight for the rich Strive Masiyiwa to get a license and not for the poor landless people to get land.
Pardon my gendered language. I meant one man/woman one farm. For your own information, women benefited from the land reform and in fact it is law in the land reform document that women should be given 40 percent of the acquired land. Of course the threshold might not have been reached, but where in the world has the threshold for women has been achieved in anything except for very few exceptional cases. I hazard to say that even in you household you have not even reached the threshold to acknowledge your wife/girlfriend as an equal or having equal rights. You say there are still women without land. Its true just as well as there are still men without it too. Why do you want to discriminate? You are trying to play the politics of gender.
You see, people like you are very unfair. You think of your own words and then you attribute them to me. I did not argue against capitalism. I argued against a very specific kind of capitalism – neoliberalism. Maybe you don’t know that there are different varieties of capitalism. There is also Keynesianism. So don’t confuse these things. Of course the ZPF elite benefited. What statute bars them from gaining land? Are they not Zimbabweans. The bad thing is when they have more than one. That’s bad and we have always said so. But that is also the case with some private elites. So be careful about your criticisms.
It is true that in life one form of injustice is replaced by another and that is what we are fighting. But you go further to try and suggest that the deterioration of life compared to the 60s is exclusive to Zimbabwe. I refer you to a mine of studies that tell you that since the 60s Africans have been getting poorer and poorer. And a lot of this is based on the current international relations which favours the West. It is these sort of things that when I argue them people make them a ZPF/MDC thing when in fact they have a broader context and because people are so hell bent on crucifying ZPF they choose to be ignorant and throw such debates. Yopu will agree with me that you need to have a wider context when you start talking about that subject – in fact with all subjects.
You see, you talk about me having faith in the govt. I never said that neither am I denying faith in them. I have faith in the land reform and black economic empowerment policies. The “economic ruin” must be taken in a context. The economic context was ruined by those who supported the West when they said they will cut our forex, which is vital for our import based economy. To be frank, the ZPF govt. has tried in the worst adversity. If they were “woefully incompetent” as you want to describe them (not your words tho) I am sure they would have broken down the economy, but it has not despite people telling us that “in six months the economy will collapse”. They have failed to define what economic collapse is and experts from the West have also called into question the idea of economic collapse. Its more of bias and emotions talking in these people than sound rationality. In fact, in case you did not know: IMF applies ESAPs on countries. Without anywhere to turn to you have no option but to submit yourself to the devil. In fact, if you can remember your economic history well, Mugabe was refusing to introduce Esap. But obviously, he did not have a choice because the country’s resources had reached their limits and something had to be done. At that time it was the lesser of the evils. I dare to say that he had built schools and clinics for you and your family. He was subsidizing your police, fire brigade, agriculture, ordering food during droughts. With all these challenges facing us and without adequate sources of income (primary commodities were falling rapidly on the international markets). Do you ever consider all these things when you analyze these situations or you just use your immediate vicinity to argue? The miracle that I hope for ZPF is to consolidate the land reform and I think they have done it. It is not up to us to sell it off. Nowhere in Africa have we seen such courage and progressive action of actually taking bold steps to take OUR land back.
ZPF knew that there would be sanctions but that could not have been the reason to chicken out and be afraid of undertaking the land reforms. DO YOU SUPPORT THESE VIOLENT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS? Please answer this one. Don’t answer whether it was so and so to blame or that they were put because of a b or c. DO YOU SUPPORT THE SANCTIONS?
So did you want ZPF to let MDC come with the politics of confrontation and then chicken out. I don’t understand you way of thinking on the one. Do you want a government to run away when an opposition party comes to challenge it?
The interesting thing is that when the businessmen hide somewhere to form cartels we don’t blame them, we use illogical economic laws to rationalize their actions. But if its politicians – people chosen by the mass, then they are criticized. Did you want 11 million Zimbabweans going to Tshwane or some privileged so-called NGO/Civil society members going to there? Make your preferences clear. I think at times when we are talking politics we need to discuss within a political framework and the same for economics and other fields. Also we need to be multidisciplinary in our approach because if we simplify these things they become incoherent.
But I am still stunned that despite the bold claims by Zimbabweans that they are learned, it took them 10 years to understand a very simple thing: that they cannot vanquish ZPF and then MDC jump into the vacuum created. They failed to understand that only through negotiations and not confrontation could the probl;em of Zimbabwe be solved. But well, some were profiting from this mess and “human rights activists” and “civil society”.
Kuthula wrote :"DO YOU SUPPORT THESE VIOLENT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS? Please answer this one. Don’t answer whether it was so and so to blame or that they were put because of a b or c. DO YOU SUPPORT THE SANCTIONS?"
What do you mean by violent ,in what context are you describing this ? I do not support sanctions,hope this brief answer suffices.......
You raise a plethora of issues,many of them quite irrelevent to the discussion at hand ,I will oblige you in piece meal fashion so that we maintain coherence.
Anony1
Continue
Violent meaning disseminating the lives of people:
through sanctions AIDS suffers (and I proved it through speaking to Jon LIden Head of Communications at Global Fund)that Zimbabwe is not being given money for AIDS programmes;
Violent in the sense that sanctions dessiminate the economy upon which our livelihoods are based on. They have choked us of forex which breathsife to the people and the economy.
Ithink I know you Anonymous..you havebeen an advocate of action on Aids. Is it not violence to deprive Aids sufferers ARVs based on political considerations?
Matshazi wrote :"In any case, it is one thing for Nkomo to speak unequivocally and the other not to have done anything when he was vice president. The only thing he did was to fight for the rich Strive Masiyiwa to get a license and not for the poor landless people to get land."
Is it not common cause that Mr.Nkomo was outmuscled and forced into a compromise with ZPF for the greater part of the 1980's ? It is a little disengenuous to scoff at his contributions and make it seem it was a cardinal sin to intervene on behalf of the entreprenual Strive Masiyiwa ,but let's not labour this detail......
"I hazard to say that even in you household you have not even reached the threshold to acknowledge your wife/girlfriend as an equal or having equal rights" This is irrelevent and similiar to hearsay.......
"Maybe you don’t know that there are different varieties of capitalism. There is also Keynesianism. So don’t confuse these things." This sounds very patronising and demeaning , a first year student of political science or economics or communications, understands this most basic concept ,nothing new here.....
"Of course the ZPF elite benefited. What statute bars them from gaining land? Are they not Zimbabweans. The bad thing is when they have more than one. That’s bad and we have always said so." You make it sound like the ZPF ruling elite are entitled to get land in priority over those who don't support ZPF.Would you please elaborate on the "we" you refer to here ?
"Yopu will agree with me that you need to have a wider context when you start talking about that subject – in fact with all subjects." This intellectual "supremacy" and apparent arrogance is quite nauseating ,let's stay on point and avoid unnecessary aggravation......
You wrote :"In fact, if you can remember your economic history well, Mugabe was refusing to introduce Esap. But obviously, he did not have a choice because the country’s resources had reached their limits and something had to be done." I will ask you to cite the source that states that Mugabe refused ESAP.And when you speak of resource limits being "reached" could you be more explicit ,because as far as I know there was huge amounts of donor funding from the then EEC states ,UK ,Japan ,Denmark ,Canada CIDA , and USAID.Is it pure coincidence that in the late 80's the Willow Gate corruption scandal reared its ugly head ?
The stickling point :"I dare to say that he had built schools and clinics for you and your family. He was subsidizing your police, fire brigade, agriculture, ordering food during droughts." Gee,you make it sound like Mugabe is a heroic superman figure ! Let's get real ,the Rhodesian govt.had established most of the infrastructure ,education was not something new,the likes of Parirenyatwa,Silundika et al had a high standard of education at the Uni of Rho.You can perhaps argue on the scale of accessibility for the masses......I will agree that Mugabe prioritised education in his early planning ,but to attribute municipal services such as fire fighting to him is stretching it ,I'm sure you do know that there's 3 levels of government ? All the other things you attribute to him, I say any competent head of state of any country should take care of that on his watch.......
In patronising terms :"I think at times when we are talking politics we need to discuss within a political framework and the same for economics and other fields. Also we need to be multidisciplinary in our approach because if we simplify these things they become incoherent." This is posturing same ole same ole.......
"But I am still stunned that despite the bold claims by Zimbabweans that they are learned, it took them 10 years to understand a very simple thing: that they cannot vanquish ZPF and then MDC jump into the vacuum created." This is factually incorrect ,MDC has existed less than 10 years , as for MDC vanquishing ZPF ,the proof will be in eating the putting ,according to March 29th polls ,MDC did vanquish ZPF !
In a mocking tone you wrote "They failed to understand that only through negotiations and not confrontation could the probl;em of Zimbabwe be solved." You seem to have this obsession of being correct or vindicated all the time ,it sounds almost egotistical.Is it not a fact that ZPFs position was that they would not speak to "traitors and western puppets",Mugabe would not meet with Tsvangirai ?
It is ZPF that has learned the hard way , that they can't have it their way all the time.These talks are a direct result of MDC applying tactical pressure ,had the MDC proceeded to take part in the June 27th election sham ,ZPF would not be in a position to negotiate ,simply because MDC's participation would have legitmized a skewed ZPF "victory"......get real dude !
Anony1
Kuthula wrote :"They have choked us of forex which breathsife to the people and the economy." Mr.Matshazi ,please mind your choice of grammar , you are not part of the "us",simply because you not residing in Zimbabwe.It would be more factual to state that"Zimbabweans have been choked...."
"Ithink I know you Anonymous..you havebeen an advocate of action on Aids. Is it not violence to deprive Aids sufferers ARVs based on political considerations?"
Its not important who I am,but rather that we have an honest,open and respectful discussion.Unfortunately ,politics deprives the innocent of vital sustenance such as life-prolonging ARVs.I do not condone this,But then again if you may allow me to use an analogy.......If you are the boss of a firm and you have a staff member who violates the code of conduct flagrantly,it would be imperative to dismiss that staff,despite the fact that his dependents will suffer as a consequence.....Zimbabweans unfortunately are suffering for the choices made by ZPF leadership......
Actually you are not the one I thouhgt you were. I was thinking that its my homeboy. Sorry about that. I did not mean to unmask you. It was in jest.
So you agree that these people are commiting economic violence. What you disagree is that it was the fault of Mugabe.
Your analogy - though very simplistic - undermines your argument. In the case of your analogy who is the boss? and whoever told that person that they are the boss? The West is not Zimbabwe's boss. If you want to use that line of thought then we must accept that President Mugabe is the boss in Zimbabwe and must discipline his sons i.e. Tsvangirai and MDC. The Mugabe is going to be disciplined by the big bosses. Well, good deal, isn't it?
Also, even if we accept that the West are bosses, who told you that the worker was doing something untolerated? We tolerate land reform with all our souls...of course except a few of those who lost part of their lands. We welcome the indigenisation programme. So for you to suggest that there was a naughty worker is very wrong to say the least.
Its a boss here that punishes the worker for demanding and taking his salary for which he or she worked for! Its good that MDC will most probably be given the economic portfolio and then they will have to clean the mess. REad Stephen Chan's article on New Zimbabwe and you will realise the unenviable position that they will be in this new government.
Also, you seem not to care about the effects of sanctions on people. Its because you are not feeling it. These innocent people did not call for or support these sanctions unlike in the Smith era when we supported themm as a way of toppling the racist regime. But now you elites and commentators are taking unilateral decisions to apply sanctions. Well, its good for you what can I say...maybe I can ssay I hope one day you have to live under such conditions and you will realise how hard it is.
Mr.Kuthula that analogy was used to illustrate a point,any reasonable person would have understood the context.I dont see why you rushed to Mugabes defence and ran with the idea that I implied the West was the boss....semantics buddie !
You imply that I dont care about the effects of sanctions on ordinary people ,this is quite redundant ,in an earlier post you asked me if I supported sanctions ,I answered you by saying I did not.So if you want to force a position onto me that I DO NOT ADHERE to what is the purpose of this dialogue , I might as well stop writing and acquiesce with whatever you write here......
You say you elites and commentators advocate sanctions , once again uninformed aspersions.I am not an elite , never have been,.You justify sanctions during the oppressive Smith regime ,yet oppose them in this current circumstance.Make up your mind mate.......Is the Mugabe regime not an oppressive regime too , what of the well documented history of violence in Mat&Midlands and the violence of the last several years.I put it to you IS MUGABE GUILTY OF HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS , YES OR NO , without trying to qualify or make excuses please answer this question in one simple sentence.
For you to preach to me about how hard it is to live under sanctions is absolutely ludicrous ! What qualification do you have to say this, yet you yourself are not living under those very same sanctions ,I will not call you a hypocrite in this instance ,but simply urge to be less reckless in your use of the collective terms ,WE,US,OUR because at times its quite confusing....considering that you are not presently resident in Zimbabwe.
Continue......
I know that analogy was used to illustrate a point but still that does not make it not guilty of being reductionist. If I rushed to Mugabe’s defense is because of the logical weakness of your point. You cannot expect to say anything against Mugabe and hope that you will get away with it. It’s not an issue about Mugabe per se but about the facts surrounding that issue that touches on Mugabe. Why do you want to make it seem bad to defend Mugabe even if one person does not see the logic in what the other person is saying…or even if that person is telling a lie?
The reason I say you don’t care is that, on the one hand you say you don’t support sanctions but on the other justify them? Should I think that you are confused?? Could it be the right term? Or let me put it this way. DO YOU THINK THAT THE CURRENT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS SHOULD BE LIFTED IMMEDIATELY? Yes or NO.
I used elite in the sense that your viewpoints are elitist. I don’t even know whether you are a pauper. The only measure I have of you is your ideas and they sound very elitist. I don’t see any contradiction in supporting sanctions during Smith’s time and condemning these ones. If I choose to cut off my lip and then after 5 years you come and try to cut off my lip as well and I refuse, you won’t say I am confused about what I want. At the time I cut off my lip I wanted to do it and now I don’t want you to make me cut myself. I want to decide for myself. It is not you who bears the pain or good feeling its me.
No person in public life or even in private has not violated human rights. Similarly, Mugabe has also violated human rights. But that should not mean that we close our minds to rational thinking because Mugabe committed human rights. So many other people did that but we continue to exercise rationality when talking about them.
You say “For you to preach to me about how hard it is to live under sanctions is absolutely ludicrous ! What qualification do you have to say this, yet you yourself are not living under those very same sanctions”
I have the right to talk about living in sanctions because I have lived under sanctions during the Smith era. I am not a born free. Had you forgotten that Rhodesia was under sanctions?
Matshazi waffles too much. Only a tenth of his contributions in thesedebates is relevant to the topic. That is beside my point. He talks about how sanctions have affected AIDS sufferes etc. The truth is the little forex that is available is being mismanaged big time. Recently we had reports that high court judges were recently showered with luxurious vehicles imported with hard earned forex at the expense of other national priorities such as purchase of medicines and hospital equipment. The Zpf gvt is itself imposing worse sanctions against the whole populace. What of villagers being denied access to food because of their political views. If I were to asked the same question asked Anonymous1, my answer would be 'yes i support the targetted sanctions'.
Matshazi , I regret to say that this debate is not progressive at all......
I will not be drawn further into your corner about the sanctions ,I believe I answered you satisfactorily.Why are you startled by my observation that you defend Mugabe and become defensive about it......? In your debates with the other guests on this thread it was made abundantly clear that you support and defend the man why agonize over this detail ?
My concern is your very nonchalant and weak response to my question on Robert Mugabe's human rights record ,moreso when I cited the Ghukurahundi Massacre that occurred in the period 1983-87 ,where an estimated 20 000 citizens lost their lives.This is a very serious question to gauge how you regard Human Rights and genocide,unless offcourse you will employ some intellectual argument disputing that the killings ever took place.....you tell me.....For you to give a very vague and watered explanation that all people in private and public life have had their human rights violated is pathetic for someone who boasts of intellectual prowess as yourself.
The Rhodesian sanctions,would you please tell me of the difficulties you encountered then....and how they affected then Rhodesian economy but moreso the masses ,I don't recall people running short of food then...but kindly fill me in ?
Also take note of my detailed responses in my other posting from the previous day ,I would appreciate your explanations......
Anony1
Why do you guys bother with Kuthula, he will never bite the hand that feeds him. Kuthula is simply a staunch devils advocate and by devil I mean old man Mugs. Do you guys really think Kuthula would place his position in Canada or his peeps back home in jeopardy by pointing out the obvious flaws in ZPF? Mugabe could personally kill 50 babies and Kuthula would say Robert was simply preventing the suffering of Zimbabwean children at the hands of western sanctions. Now that Kuthula has a kid there is not a chance in hell he is going to risk getting recalled back to Zimbabwe.
Guys, there is one thing that I don’t understand with you. You say I waffle, I sound senseless and I am ridiculous and yet you keep coming back to discuss with me. In fact Dave knows that I am so ridiculous that I could easily defend the personal killing of 50 children and yet he keeps coming back to discuss with psychopath. What is it that I have that keeps you coming back for more of the ridiculous arguments?
Before I can respond to your comments, can you respond to this puzzle? I certainly don’t talk to nut people as evidenced by this racist who was ranting in one of these threads. I simply don’t talk to thugs and idiots.
Dave, I tell you once again, I don't like threats!
Kuthula ,unfortunately it seems our discussion has been sidetracked.......perhaps we will have to adjourn.
I will move on to your latest postings and comment where necessary maybe from there we can continue.....
Anony1
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