Kuthula Matshazi
These comments are based on Zimbabwe's main opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) leader Morgan Tsvangirai's interview with an UK based radio station that is run by Zimbabweans on his policies . Several issues arise which are not clearly explained.
Before I make comments on issues that Tsvangirai addressed, I must bring to attention that the interviewer - and indeed all other journalists - have never asked Tsvangirai whether he supports economic sanctions. Sure, he is likely to deny that there are economic sanctions for fear of self incrimination, but journalists should ask him whether he supports, in principle, the use of economic sanctions as a disciplinary regime. We want to know his general stance, if he cannot commit himself to the specific economic sanctions that he called for in Zimbabwe. Either way, his answer will tell us a lot.
Now to the issues that he discussed in his interview:
Where will the government of Tsvangirai get the money to start his economic projects and safety nets considering that we have serious balance of payments, no support (for as long as we have our land) and - by his own words - does not want to engage the IMF? Who will come in? Why is he not telling us? and why is the interviewer not pressing him on that?
Tsvangirai also lies and says that IMF does not come to countries economically damaged as Zimbabwe
He promises Matabeleland all the social services, where is he going to get the money?
He also suggests that he does not know that there is corruption in Zimbabwe and yet in many of his other speeches and his party's literature, there is so much on that issue? He says he will investigate when he gets into power. Does that not give us a clue why he cannot win elections...because he does not know anything. He's working on specualtion.
How can Tsvangirai reconcile (and this is supposed to be the first question) land reforms that favour the majority without upsetting his faceless donors who have made it a point that land reform has to be reversed. Not that I say faceless and contradict myself. I use faceless because we know who is GOING to sponsor Tsvangirai - the West, IMF and WB. By the way, land reforms can also mean involving shifting land from the poor to the few rich and agribusiness, which is the trend around many countries dominated by the neoliberal logic. This is seen as thenormal thing to do. And of course we have heard some of our own people argue in support of this skewed and irrational logic. People are suffering yet these people with all the resources divert food to biofuels and unacceptable consumption we engage in the West.
Can Tsvangirai on the one hand say that he will provide healthcare for the 80 percent of people who are poor? Where will get the money to sustain the operations?
He also mentions about giving "CHOICE" to people in seeking healthcare. That is neoliberal code language for PRIVATIZATION. So Tsvangirai is going to have a two tier healthcare system which will be a precursor to PRIVATE HEALTHCARE? And when he has faied, which he will do according to his plan, to sustain the healthcare plan, he will then turn to the private providers to take over the healthcare system? Why should we introduce CHOICE? Why not building a system that caters for all so that we will make sure we do not discriminate against the poor by pushing resources to the rich?
How is Tsvangirai going to deal with external debt problem? Through debt forgiveness? Which only happens if a country accepts structural adjustment programme? Tsvangirai might try to rig interviews but we are going to see through this. Its very easy. As long as he exposes himself to the media, we will unpack his message. If he is quite, then we will not know what he stands for.
Tsvangirai has a lot to do about his policy...but he is beholden...he can't abandon the so-called "international Community" (read Western) norms to craft pro-Zimbabwe policies...heading for another spectacular defeat!!
97 comments:
Can't he just print money willy nilly like your buddy Mugabe has done to fund all of his promises?
You seem to have a bone to pick with private healthcare, I am not for or against this but I think we need to explore all avenues, obviously the current system is not working. Like it or not there will always be a tiered system for healthcare, the rich will always have better services than the poor.
Beyond that without hearing Morgan's interview personally I cannot really comment on your analysis.
I think its better that you listen to the interview and argue from an informed and objective position.
The fact that there is a two tiered system does not mean we should be trying to entrench private run healthcare services.
So Tsvangirai can print money as well? Well, if he is going to do that, just like the Americans then he should tell us. We only want to know. Is that a sin?
I guess my sarcasm about printing money did not translate well in this medium.
What is wrong with a mix of both private and publicly run healthcare? You need to loosen up a little Kuthula, not everyone wants your quasi-socialist style of life, there is nothing wrong with private healthcare.
What I would really like to hear from you is an alternative. For months you have railed against any opposition but you say nothing of the party actually running the country. Where does Mugabe get the money to continue his lavish lifestyle while common Zimbabweans starve? Is this not a more pertinant question? Or I guess that does not matter to a guy who has defected to Canada.
Dave, you do not need to get too personal. Just debate the facts as they are.I have got a question for you. Do you think Tsvangirayi will make a better leader for Zim? You say President Mugabe is your buddy, What do you mean? Majority of us Zimbabweans see President Robert Gabriel Mugabe as the democratically elected President of Zimbabwe and on his way to another resounding victory. The reason being his policies resonates with about 80 percent of Zimbabweans.Yes Majority of Zimbabweans are starving not because President Mugabe is affording a lavish life. The suffering that has been engineered by your dear Morgan and his principals.We Zimbabweans have come of age, and have become hardened, come rain come thunder, we will stand for social justice.
You see Dave, someone has finally told you how personal you get...you make me reluctant to engage you when you start getting personal. That's why I can no longer engage you. You will just insult me and engage with my original article. I cannot stand the insults neither can I deny you the opportunity too insult me.
I look forward to a time when you will engage issues and not what you do now.
By the way, its true that Mugabe was elected by the majority. You can cheat yourself all you want, the truth wont change. I think the challenge is to device viable strategies on how you can defeat him and not on denials.
Ok Kuthula, I bid you farewell, enjoy my last comment.
To anonymous, I don't know if Morgan will make a better leader for our country but I do feel that he cannot do any worse than Robert has done. In 27 years I have watched our dollar go from better than par to the US dollar to virtually worthless. I guess you think that is good management by our esteemed leader but I don't.
I didn't call Mugabe my buddy, I called him Kuthula's buddy, please do a better job of reading my comments. It amazes me that you can blame morgan for the downfall of our country when he has had no power to do anything in our country. If things were going so great in Zimbabwe I am sure Kuthula would not have run away to Canada, to get an education and raise his family.
I have some questions for you.
1) Where do you currently reside, are you currently in Zimbabwe or have you too managed to escape the horror that is our country?
2)Was it Morgan who sent our troops and wasted millions in the Congo?
3) Was it Morgan who spent the last 27 years failing to invest in our infrastructure?
The questions could go on and on and on but it would be a waste of my time.
Dave, its important that we carry out objective analysis, and argue from informed positions. Be able to read through some propaganda from Zimbabwe's detractors, who do not wish Zimbabwe well.
One's emotions or personal circumstances should not blind one from the reality.Zimbabwe has had its rough time, has had ups and downs, it has its challenges, corruption, poverty etc, but has also scored a lot of successes.
From one University in 1980 to how many today?, Teachers' training colleges, technical colleges, secondary schools, primary schools, rural electrification programme which saw my rural growth point electrified, my rural secondary school electrified, several borehalls in rural areas for the rural poor, who under a colonial government where never seen as deserving attention, decency or humanity. This is what makes President Mugabe a hero amongst that lot. Unfortunately for some, that happens to be the majority who can stand by him come rain come thunder, in all weather. These are the people who can stand even the whole day in a queue to cast a vote,they bore the brunt of the liberation struggle, not the urbanites, they are not patient, some will not even bother to go to cast their vote.That is the reality on the ground. We should not live a lie, and go with the recycled propaganda that elections are rigged, this and that and so on.
Things are not well in Zim today, but not all because of President Mugabe, you and me know the campaingns that the opposition MDC has been making around the Globe. We all know about the ruinous economic sanctions imposed by the West, which are illegal and unfair. They have contributed a lot in the suffering of Zimbabweans today.
Here are your Answers:-
(a) My location is not material, and will not influence my analysis.
(b) Zim went to Congo to avert a possible genocide, It should be commended for that. You can not put a prize tag to human life, so whatever it cost Zim in financial terms was more than worth it.
(c)Morgan Tsvangirayi has within this short life of his party destroyed what Zim built over a long time.
Dave bear in mind that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Democracy is a game of numbers, how many in Zim call him a freedom fighter. The ballot will decide.
Kuthula I offer my sincerest apologies but it appears I must finish this last discussion before I bid thee my final farewell.
Anonymous, first of all you say we need an objective analysis and not emotional and then you proceed to list a string of emotional reasons as to why Mugabe deserves his current post. Anyone who has tpo bring up the liberations struggle only does so because they want to take advantage of the positive feelings we have towards Mugabe for his positive role in that struggle. Mugabe's role in that struggle does not grant him the right to rule over us for life, it does not grant him impunity for his transgressions against the Zimbabwean people by way of his poor management of the economy. Granted Mugabe did some good things in his tenure and that is to be expected but when a leader can no longer perform his duties both nationally and on the international stage then a new leader should be selected.
Blaming Morgan for the state of the Zimbabwean economy is ridiculous, it would be like George Bush blaming Al Gore for the war in Iraq.
Judging by your refusal to state where you currently reside I assume you no longer reside in Zimbabwe. To the contrary you location is very material when it comes to your views. One such as yourself who resides in luxury in the west can easily support Mugabe because you are not burdened with the hardships that come with the Zim dollar trading at 28 million to 1 US dollar, you have the luxury of a fast internet connection, you have the ability to buy your children text books assuming you have any. You can sit at home and not worry about having clean water or worry about how you will cook dinner should the electricity turn off. These worries are not the worries of just the rural Zimbabwean, these are the everyday fears faced by the citizens of our capital city of Harare, a once jewel of Africa. So for you to sit at your computer and insist your location doesn't matter is insulting to Zimbabweans who must live their lives under Mugabe's rule in Zimbabwe. (I thank my lucky stars I escaped)
You say that the lives saved in the Congo warrants any financial loss Zimbabwe might have suffered as a result of this incursion? Well tell that to all the Zimbabweans who have died do to the lack of Medicine that Zimbabwe can no longer afford, tell that to the Zims who have died of Malnourishment due to our inability to afford fertilizers so we could grow sufficient food stores, tell that to the scores of people who live like slaves or worse in South Africa just so that they can eek out a living for themselves and family members back home due to the lack of jobs becuase our business no longer have enough forex to purchase the materials required to run our factories.
Just like Kuthula I wonder if you are in some way financial supported by the ZPF administration.
To claim that Mugabe has the mandate of the people is simply ludicrous, we have seen in Kenya, the Ukraine and even the united states that ballots are not always counted in a manor that reflects reality.
Mandela played a similar role in terms of the liberation of South Africa that Mugabe did in Zimbabwe but he was wise enough to know that often the qualities that are required of a freedom foghter are not necessarily the same as those required to run a country. A truly wise leader will step aside and allow the country to move forward instead of mired in the past as you seem to be. Your hero worship of Mugabe is truly a sad thing to see.
Dave, You are right in listing all the hardships that Zimbabweans are living with day in day out. Zimbabweans all over are saying so, the President, Robert Mugabe have said so on numerous occassions. Where I differ with you, and where you differ with lots of Zimbabweans is who is the archtect of that ssuffering? What are the intended objectives of those inducing and exacerbating the suffering.
Zimbabweans who are living with the hardships have been sending clear messages through the ballot, ever since life became tough.
Its not the Diasporans with all the comfort you mentioned who will influence political direction. President Mugabe has the mandate of the people, who have endorsed him ever since under strict compliance with democratic principles, holding elections when ever they are due. He is not clinging on to power, but does not want to betray the people who still got confidence in him.
Whoever wants to challenge him, is free to do so. It is all about strategies and policies that resonates with the majority, that will carry the day. If you want to know how good a job President Mugabe did to Congo ask the Congolese. If you want to know about George Bush's job in Iraq ask the Iraqis.
Witmoer, fleeing Efrica....
Mugabe is a hero and the earth is flat. So say 80% of the Zim population.
Eish! Leave Zimbabwe alone! Let them die from hunger. That is the way of nature - the foolish and weak shall perish.
"President Mugabe has the mandate of the people, who have endorsed him ever since under strict compliance with democratic principles"
You call Zimbabwe democratic?
With no free press?
With no property rights?
With wide scale corruption?
With a president-for-life?
With vote buying?
With Police and Army generals intimidating the public?
With no international observation?
With state-sponsored violence against the opposition?
With biased election committee.
With voter rolls in shambles.
With election demarcation still not published 2 weeks before the election?
With NGOs banned?
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Do you actually understand the concepts of democracy?
But no worry. This is what you would expect from someone from a country with Zero understanding of economics, of fiscal and monetary policies, of agriculture, of diesel from rocks, of foreign exchange, of education, of industry, of foreign relations, of logic, of intellect, etc. etc.
A country that cannot even feed itself, and are being humiliated by receiving free food from their ‘enemies’, the West.
Eish!
Thank you anonymous for your understanding of democracy. If a country is poor, it does not mean it is undemocratic, the same with corruption. Every country has its share of corruption, but doesn't make them undemocratic neither does it make them poor. There are countries that are very corrupt but with more stable and democratic gvts and stronger economies.
The only Press Freedom that is denied in Zim is freedom to misrepresent facts and write outright lies.
The only property rights that are seized are rights that were obtained by Fraud, theft, robbery or other forms of chicanery.
A President who comes out of a democratic process of selection does not offend democracy nomatter how many terms as long as he is not violating any constitutional law.
Electoral Observation does not cease to be International only because a few hostile nations with a vested interest, conflict of interests and a prejudged assessment are not invited. Who thinks the opposition should always win for a process to be free, fair and transparent.
The violence has largely been Opposition sponsored, if you may cite any incidents if you think to the contrary.
What makes the Election Committee biased?, clearly mention how and where they were biased.
What makes the voter's roll to be in shambles, if you believe it is, elaborate.
Which NGO has been banned and why?
Anonymous #1, just because you are ignorant of the fact on the ground in Zimbabwe does not mean those facts do not exist. Here is an excerpt from an article as far back as 2004.
"President Mugabe's ruling party has used its majority in Parliament to push through the "Non-Governmental Organisations Bill". The new law bans all international organisations in Zimbabwe working on "governance issues," including many human rights organisations. It places severe restrictions on local human rights organisations and prevents them from accessing international donor funding."
It is obvious that NGO's are a sector that is under attact from the government of Zimbabwe.
Why should I be concerned with what the Congolese think of Mugabe? Is Mugabe the President of the Congo or is he the leader of Zimbabwe? Is the mandate of the President of Zimbabwe to look after the people of the Congo or does his responsibility rest with looking after us Zimbabweans? I am sad to see that you care more about the suffering of the people of the Congo than you do about your fellow countrymen.
As for the press we all know that Zimbabwe does not have a free press, international press are restricted and even Zimbabwean reporters must watch what they say if they want to remain in business.
At this point it is onbvious that you are nothing more than a codpiece for the Mugabe regime, you care nothing for the hardships facing the people of Zimbabwe.
Dave, Its not that I am ignorant of the situation on the ground, I might even be more up to date than you. I did not deny the existance of the said Bill you quoted. The Bill intended to curtail NGO's who were getting out of hand, carrying out operations outside the scope of their functions. Most of whom had turned into Opposition Political Activism whilst receiving foreign funding. Political Parties Act does not allow foreign funding for political purposes. He who pays the piper calls the tune.
My simple question is Which NGO was banned and for what reasons? That is the problem with some of you guys who can not debate issues without name calling, or labling people that he is this or that. Just stick to your facts of argument. I can call you this or that because of your views, that doesn't bring up a health debate. Convince me with facts that you are right and I am wrong.
If other countries had adopted your kind of thinking, that each one for himself, Zimbabwe wouldn't have been independent until today. Mozambique was attacked by both apartheid South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia. We also should not mind suffering to save a fellow African country.
Please don't be so sensitive, it is so tiresome when people act as if they have been offended by a complete stranger in a forum. If you say something that I think is ignorant I am going to call you on it.
Please name one country that has made it own citizens face 100,000% inflation for the good of another nation. I don't see many other African nations helping us now, do you? Are we being given food, electricity or debt relief from any of our African brothers? Once again you show your total disregard fro the suffering of Zimbabweans, disgusting.
Plus your question is totally unfair, if the government banned a NGO from coming into the country how would anyone know about it? How would anyone know the reasons? The fact is that the government put in place laws to restrict NGOs from operating in the country, that is fact.
Let me ask you a question, which NGO strayed from its mission and instead became a political activist and please explain exacxtly what the infraction was and where we can find this information for ourselves.
That's the proble with people who debate like you, always asking questions but never backing up anything you say.
How exactly did Morgan destroy the economy when since 1982 the Zim dollar has been declining in value, I remember in 1995 being shocked the the US was trading at 10:1, I had not even heard of Morgan at that point.
Please explain the wisdom in distributing commercial farms to individuals with Zero commercial farming experience. Unlike Kuthula and probably you I have been back home and seen the once green fields full of weeds. I have seen our once beautiful city centre looking like a shadow of its former self. I have lived in Harare when the water had been shut off for days, leaving toilets totally useless. I have been in harare when the electricity has been off and my nephews have had to do their homework by candlelight. All these things I would never have imagined growing up in Zimbabwe during the eighties and nineties.
Our young brothers and sisters born in 1998 and onwards know absolutely nothing of how great it was to live in Zimbabwe during the years Kuthula and I and presumably grew up. I for one feel responsible to these young ones to return Zimbabwe to what it was, I could care less what you and Kuthula think but I know Mugabe is not the way forward. Mugabe is the past and we need to look to the future.
This is Witmoer speaking...
Anonymous, you use such Orwellian logic to try and defend Mugabe. This approach might have worked for the animals on Animal Farm, and for the dim witted people of Zimbabwe, but the rest of the world just laughs at your stupid arguments. Really, go to www.sokwanele.com to see all the breaches against the SADC election standards, the same standards that Mugabe promised to uphold by putting down his signature.
Article 4.1.2: 184 breaches
Article 7.4: 157 breaches
Article 2.1.3: 147 breaches
Article 4.1.1: 120 breaches
Article 2.1.1: 119 breaches
"The only Press Freedom that is denied in Zim is freedom to misrepresent facts and write outright lies." – and we, the pigs, are the only ones that know the true facts!
“The only property rights that are seized are rights that were obtained by Fraud, theft, robbery or other forms of chicanery.” – said Napoleon the pig to the animals, explaining why the pigs are allowed to stay in the house.
“Electoral Observation does not cease to be International only because a few hostile nations with a vested interest, conflict of interests and a prejudged assessment are not invited.” – and we, the pigs, defines who is hostile and who is friendly.
Any 16 year old student from any civilized country in the world will show you the flaws in your arguments:
Dave, Its not that I am not happy with you seeing me as ignorant of the facts on the ground, but not happy when you call me a codpiece for Mugabe Regime. Anyway you miss the argument. Its not about who you want to be the leader or who I want to rule Zim, that is one's secret vote.
Its about the reality on the ground, the true facts, whether we hate someone or like him, we should give credit where it deserves and criticise where there is need to.
As things stand home the truth is Mugabe is more popular than Tsvangirai, we can not elevate Tsvangirai to levels he does not fit.We should not live a lie.Whether Mugabe is past, that is what the people will be demonstrating on the 29th. I am not saying those multitudes behind Mugabe are right or wrong. But I am giving my fair assessment and opinion as to why it is like that.
For your own information, I strongly think have been home more than you, because in one of your installments you stated that there is no fuel at all, Zim has no foreign currency to buy fuel, But I would like you to ask JOHN SIMPSON a British journalist who was there just recently who was shocked to actually see a traffic jam in the city.
Thanks you have admitted you do not know of an NGO that was banned and have never heard of one, so its better you say so, all you know is that there is a Law that intends to curtail abuse to NGOs and by NGOs.
I called you a codpiece because you are currently serving the same purpose metaphorically for Mugabe.
Also you are a LIAR. Recent polls show Mugabe trailing Tsvingirai with voters in Zimbabwe. We also see early attempts at vote rigging with fewer polling stations placed in Urban areas that is necessary for proper voting.
All of your arguments are based on lies and failure to answer questions fielded to you. You failed to answer any of my questions which is further proof of your lack of knowledge of the facts on the ground.
Please point to the place where I said there was no fuel, copy and paste the phrase and tell us all where you found it. Yet another case of you flat out lying to push your feeble argument.
You say we must give Mugabe credit, so why not give him credit for the negative things that have happend in Zimbabwe. Mugabe is president and yet you say he has not had the power to beat a simply citizen like Morgan when it comes to defending the economy. You must think that Morgan is more powerful if he can destroy the economy while Mugabe seeks to keep it strong. If Mugabe as president cannot beat Morgan than I wonder what Morgan could do as president. (This is in no way an admission that Morgan had anything to do with the economic collapse but simply an exercise showing your completely flawed logic)
A traffic jam does not relate to an abundance of fuel. Zimbabweans are probably driving slowly to conserve as much fuel as possible, or have been forced to use a single lane due to pot holes and lack of maintenance. Who knows the traffic jam could and probably was because everyone was rushing to the one fueling station that had fuel in the city. Obviously you have not been home recently if you do not know about this phenomenon.
Do you even have an argument for your support of Mugabe in 2008? If so let's hear it.
Dave,I am not a LIAR, here is what you said responding to Mashie, when you were debating about sanctions, under Kuthula's article "What caused Doha to go off the rail"
Where are these ships that are delivering fuel to Zimbabwe, you are talking about what happened to the Rhodesians and not in 2008, ha ha make sure you do your research. Zimbabwe doesn't even have the forex to buy fuel.
February 14, 2008 11:37 PM
The polls you refer to are the opinion of the few mainly who are in the Diaspora, who do not count when it comes to the opinion of the majority Zimbabweans who are in Uzumba Maramba Pfungwe to Hurungwe.
I am not denying that it is scarce.We have to agree on the external pressure exerted by Zim's detractors to force a regime change that serves their own interests. All that with the hand and blessings of Morgan Tsvangirai MDC who has lobbied for sanctions and other punitive measures.Tsvangirai only needs power at whatever cost. He behaves like an imperial viceroy.
In one of your comments you say "You must think that Morgan is more powerful if he can destroy the economy while Mugabe seeks to keep it strong". YES, HANDS DOWN MORGAN TSVANGIRAI IS MORE POWERFUL in sabotage terms. Noone can come close to him. He teamed up with the most desstructive forces in the world...the most violent governments in the world! Imagine a combination of Bush, Blair and Tsvangirai?...UNPARALLELED VIOLENCE.
Witmoer says...
By posing in front of your "library", kuthula, you seem to project an image of a intellectual man. Unfortunately your comments and arguments expose you as being as dim-witted as the rest of the Zim population that keeps Mugabe in power.
Shame Witmoer, you can never be half that man.That is all you are good at, you and Dave. Your arguments are always laced with repugnant diatribes, characterised with innuendos that compromises the source of your bitterness.You can not engage in meaningful discourse which is decent and factual.
By Mashie:
National Report
Dealing with past human rights abuses
Wellington Mbofana
IT has been suggested on countless occasions that the reason President Robert Mugabe and a number of his henchmen will not relinquish power is because they are afraid of prosecution for genocide arising from Gukurahundi, crimes against humanity emanating from such campaigns as Murambatsvina and other gross human rights violations.
I am always fascinated to read or listen to debates on the emotive theme of prosecution of perpetrators of human rights violations.
I must state from the outset that this article is not meant to critique recent contributions or statements by some opposition leaders on the subject but rather to broaden the debate on the emotive question of justice in transitional societies.
Many commentators share the popular ethical and legalist view of human rights organisations, which pushes for prosecution and punishment of those guilty of certain crimes.
It is generally believed that such prosecution and the attendant punishment will serve as a deterrent to future tyrants and warmongers as well as act as a repository of collective memory for affected societies.
This position, which has in our time guided the prosecution of war crimes and crimes against humanity, gained currency from the post World War II Nuremberg and Tokyo trials where perpetrators of war crimes were subjected to victors’ justice.
While those who stood trial after the Second World War were powerless individuals representing vanquished regimes that had lost their weapons, tyrants in our contemporary times manage endemic systems that in most cases are not uprooted at the time of “democratic” change.
It is very common for the security apparatus to be inherited with little changes after negotiated or peaceful regime change. This means continued influence of and allegiance to leaders of the different warring camps by some pockets of the securocrats.
It is also not uncommon for ousted regimes to command some measure of political support in the populace.
This means new governments would have to consider whether punishing war criminals would not provoke an armed backlash or civil unrest at the same time being mindful that perceived delays of justice would equally attract a backlash. It’s a dilemma!
Chilean activist, Jose Zalaquett, at one time chairperson of the International Human Rights Internship Programme and member of the International Commission of Jurists, identifies “balancing ethical imperatives and political constraints” as the challenge of new democracies faced with a brutal past of human rights violations.
Faced with such a dilemma, Max Weber suggests, in Politics, as a vocation that “political leaders should be guided by ethics of responsibility as opposed to the ethics of conviction”.
The former suggests acting guided by the predictable consequences of one’s action and the later acting according to the law regardless of outcome!
While the two are different and may seem diametrically opposed, each contains traces of the other though in smaller doses.
Some have argued that it is better to suffer longer under tyranny with the hope of total victory than to make progress through conceding some compromises. I am convinced such fundamentalist views are not raised by those at the receiving end of the gross abuses.
Experience from post internecine conflict situations show that even with the best political settlement, perpetrators of heinous crimes would still wield political or military power or would still very much be entrenched in the bureaucracy and other state institutions.
These could not be smoked out and the institutions overhauled overnight without causing other problems. In any transition compromises are made. Unfortunately when such decisions are made, the majority of citizens and the victims are not consulted for they simply would vote with their emotions.
As argued above, in some cases the effects of threatening, let alone pursuing those wielding power, are catastrophic.
Buoyed by a possible victory in the Zimbabwe 2002 presidential election, an opposition party Member of Parliament was quoted as having made a populist announcement that once their candidate secured the ticket to State House, they would extend Chikurubi Maximum prison to accommodate perpetrators of crimes against humanity and other gross human rights violations especially from the top brass of the security forces.
Predictably, the security chiefs responded unequivocally and commonsensical that that the presidency was a straight jacket and they were gatekeepers to State House. In other words, they would not let go of power to go and rot in Chikurubi! That killed the contest. With hindsight, perhaps some form of accommodation and compromises with the establishment could have helped. Unbelievably the same drama unfolded in 2008! It remains to be seen whether the outcome will be different.
The Patriotic Front of the late Dr Joshua Nkomo and President Mugabe made a lot of compromises at Lancaster. While many are apt to criticise the nationalists’ concessions on the land, the reserved seats, protection of white minority interests etc, the truth is the leaders were confronted with the challenge of balancing the ethical imperatives of justice and the political constraints of dealing with their nemesis who still held enormous power in the security forces, the bureaucracy and the economy!
South Africa had a similar dilemma and they sensibly chose to compromise with the apartheid barons and their generals and gave in to what are popularly known as the “Sunset clauses”. They are countless other examples.
The cost of prosecuting some of the tyrants and perpetrators also poses an ethical dilemma. In the case of Sierra Leone, the UN backed Tribunal/Special Court was at inception estimated to require about US$4 billion. Similarly the expenses in the trials of Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague, perpetrators of the heinous Rwandan Genocide in Arusha, former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein in Iraq etc, runs into billions of dollars.
In our modern and civilised world, even fallen tyrants and perpetrators of the most dehumanising crimes have rights to a fair trial (presumed innocent until proven guilty) and humane treatment at everyone’s cost!
But the question is: Can’t all the billions be used in rebuilding the lives of those who, like the “bush wives” of Sierra Leone, survived barbarism of the insurgents; the millions of Rwandese traumatised by the worst genocide of our time; the millions of Iraqis stripped of their dignity and humanity by torture and the millions of people in Yugoslavia who are still haunted by the mere mention of the name of the fallen dictator, Slobo?
Justice as an end in dealing with past human rights abuses may be derived through different means as perceived from the point of view of the international community on one side and the victims on the other. To the international community justice is attained through prosecution and punishment of offenders while the victims may see justice as reparation and prevention of recurrence. While in theory the two positions can be “mutually inclusive” or merged, in practice as mentioned above, they are actually mutually exclusive.
It remains practicable however, to find ways to disclose the full truth about the past, remember the fallen, seek compensation for the victims of the greatest abuses and deter recurrence. Truth and reconciliation commissions, compensation funds and designation of special development areas as well as memorials and memorialisation in post conflict areas across the globe are attempts towards that.
l Wellington Mbofana is a Harare-based writer
IN ADDITION MUGABE IS SOLEY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUFFERING OF ZIMBABWEANS. IF TSWANGIRAYI HAS CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING THEN HE IS JUST BUT A BRICK IN THE HANDS OF A BUILDER WHO IS MUGAKLA. IF TSWANGIRAYI IS THAT CRUEL AND MUGABE THAT SMART HOW DOES THE LATTER FAIL TO CONTROL HIM AND PROTECT THE MASSES, WHEN TSWANGIRAYI CAMPAIGNS FOR SANCTIONS DOES HE USE LIES TO CONVINCE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OR HE USES FACTS ON THE GROUND? MUGABE IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE.
Ha ha ha, so typical Kuthula. So you actually think Morgan Tsivangirai has access to President George Bush and Former Minister Blair in order to coordinate the downfall of Zimbabwe. Let me tell you something, although you may think Mugabe is an important man since he pay your bills he in fact is not all that important on the world stage.
If George Bush really wanted Mugabe out of power Mugabe would be another Saddam. It is so funny when I hear these delusions of grandeur spoken by you and mambers of ZPF. You seem to think Bush is having meetings on Zimbabwe.
Yeah sure Kuthula......George Bush has Morgan Tsivangirai on speed dial, they probably test one another, ha ha ha. You can be quite funny Kuthula.
Mashie says
"That is all you are good at, you and Dave. Your arguments are always laced with repugnant diatribes, characterised with innuendos that compromises the source of your bitterness.You can not engage in meaningful discourse which is decent and factual."
You know what, I am bitter, for all the reasons I have stated and others. There is no reason that our country should be in the position it is in now and that makes me bitter. If you are not bitter that our people are suffering then I guess that is you, but I for one am angry. I know the potential we Zimbabweans have and am sick of being shackled by the lack of management skills displayed by ZPF.
We have a country that is rich in resources and even richer when it comes to the intelligence of our people, and yet it is all wasted. We really had a chance to become a power within Africa, Mugabe could have retired some time back and had respect in Africa and the world comparable to that of Mandela.
Instead we have a country performing worse than any other country in the world. How can you not be bitter? How can you not be angry? How can you not be emotional? You obviously do not have the same feelings towards our home than I do. Sad.
Y are you worried about me standing at my LIBRARY? You want me to pose at a brothel or drinking coke?
Its not about intellectualism...its what I treasure. I think you are the least qualified to judge my intelectual capacity since you do not have it yourself...you have never engaged issues (as Mashie rightly pointed out)but racism, hate and abuse. That's not intellectuallism.
So I dont know what your basis for judgine such comes from. You might say all these things because you are ignorant. Ignorant people don't iknow what they don't know and when they see things that they dont know yet are in the mainstream accepted knowledge they raise alarm. Shame. Present facts so that we can start taking you serious. We cant take you serious because you speak racism or use abusive language.
Kuthula, an excerpt from a Morgan interview just for you.
Violet: On the issue of the educational and the health sector, what is your position on privatisation of such basic services?
Tsvangirai: I don’t believe in the privatisation of public institutions like hospitals. We are a social democratic party, we believe that the state must provide the basics to the majority of the people and one of those basic services that the majority must access is health care and education. I believe also that the government would be able to deal with these issues much more effectively than private hospitals because the majority cannot afford it especially in the rural areas and the urban poor. We will still have to provide government services to our health and education because the majority; 80-85% of people have to depend on state support. I believe that will still remain our very fundamental policy.
I hope you now will take back your ascertion that Morgan supports privitization.
Dave, Yes a lot of people are bitter, what differs is their source of bitterness. Our bitterness is directed towards different targets. Your problem is you go off your way and target even Kuthula who has done nothing besides providing this platform for discussing our issues.
You do not need to get that much personal. It should be your facts and views that should clash on a subject matter, and leave Kuthula the person alone.
lets talk about What makes President Mugabe a Pan Africanist par excellency?.
What makes Morgan Tsvangirai the person he is?.
What effects has sabotage on our economy?
Why is regime change mainly masterminded from Outside Zim, buy Non Zimbabweans? and so forth.
Lets display some level of maturity, decency and civility. The virtues Zimbabwe holds dear.We are an educated and very civilised people.That is why the West has always got it wrong on Zim.
Mashie:
Mashie, Kuthula and I have had many discussions and trust me he has called me various names ofer the months but both he and I understand that what important are the ideas that we are putting across. To Kuthula's credit he is able to pick our the more relevant ideas and argue for or against those points. Crying about personal attacks or whatever is such a waste of time, you can look at any discourse throught history from your Hero Mugabe to Hillary Clinton and Obama and every single one has had discussions where they use personal attacks. This is simply the nature of human discourse, something you seem unaccustomed to. Typically people who are offended by this type of discourse are those who normally read books only and cannot intertact with others. Are you one of those people?
Ok Mashie, we have heard your opinion on personal attacks or whatever can you find the maturity to move on? Or is this going to be your stumbling block, as usual when confronted when insurmountable arguments against your opinions you whine and complain about the way the ideas were presented. Get over it. Pick out the ideas and respond. You are presumably an adult, it's time you learned to absorb any name calling or perceived insults.
I have yet to hear any convincing argument as to why you support Mugabe all we hear are more and more questions. How about responding to my comments.
Well dave, I heard this interview long ago and it was the basis of my article. How many politicians hide behind social democracy? Where is he going to get his money to implement social democracy? He says he wont go to the IMF? So where is he going to get his money. I accept maybe I am biased but please hazard and let me know where he is going to get the money?
Its not social democratic parties that can be able to implement profound social justice issues as tsvangirai envisions, but a grassroots party. Social democracy is co-opted...its other name is the discredited THIRD WAY.
Kuthula you cannot have it both ways, on one hand you say that Morgan is in bed with George Bush and the British and they are financing him in order to remove Mugabe. If that is the case you must believe they will financially support the MDC government should they achieve victory. In that case he would receive money from the US and the UK.
In truth we can only speculate so here is my speculation. Upon Mugabes removal, the IMF and world bank will be willing to work with Zimbabwe again since they will no longer have to deal with a hostile ZPF. I also think that Zimbabwe will move to the head of the line in terms of debt forgiveness. If the change in government is stable and not frought with violence investors will be encouraged to return to Zimbabwe to invest in local industries. Many people know that there is a lot of opportunity in Zimbawe and will be more than willing to pour millions of dollars into the economy. There will obviously be an increase in tax receipts and this will allow the government to begin spending more on these programs. None of these things will happen if Mugabe remains. No one will invest, no debt will be forgiven, the Zim economy will continue on its current path.
Kuthula, I have given you an honest an realistic expectation of what could happen should Mugabe be removed. Please give us your vision of Zimbabwe and how things might improve under another Mugabe administration. Please try to share your excitement at the prospect of continuing with Robert. Where will Mugs get money to do the things he has promised?
Well, Dave, just a quick response on a particular point: If the UK and US are financing him, then we know that he is in bed with evil regimes. They have caused the economic violence in Zimbabwe and also they established, entrenched and continue to mange neoliberalism. This is the answer that I wanted to hear from you and I knew you would say it. And you are done!
We dont want evil money which is sourced around the world and dripping with blood! Morgan Tsvangirai and his ilk can have it if they want it.
Dave, you might be very right that the UK and US and IMF will re-engage Zim and pour in funds.So Morgan Tsvangirai is expecting this institution called IMF, these countries UK and US to provide him with manna from heaven. Has that ever happened anywhere? Do not forget the strings attached to those funds and the hangman's noose at the end of each string. We are not prepared to go that way, for the second round. We can take the rough and challenging route that brings at the end a very strong foundation, and an economy free from neo-colonial bondage. We do not need easy and quick money that is poisonous.The coalition of the willing has promised to rebuild Iraq, have they done so? Afghanstan turned to a cocaine production factory. I think everyone else including the gvt of Zim wants to re-engage with IMF, World Bank, US UK, EU you name them, but on terms that are fair.
Mashie:
Kuthula once again you rely only LIES, here is exactly what I said.
"Kuthula you cannot have it both ways, on one hand you say that Morgan is in bed with George Bush and the British and they are financing him in order to remove Mugabe."
Read my comments Kuthula, I said YOU say that Morgan is financed by the US and the UK, I am not saying that. You always use this sort of tactic, you take things out of context and then twist them to fit your warped arguments. C'mon Kuthula, is this the type of tactic you learnt in journalism school? This cannot be what they are teaching you in your newly adopted home of Canada.
And to Mashie, First you say you don't want funds from the US, UK, IMF and world bank due to the "Strings Attached" and then at the end of your comment you say everyone including ZPF wants to re-engage with those same funding sources. Your analysis seems to be schizophrenic, "we don't want to go down that road but we want it".......which is it mashie? Obviously everyone wants fair terms, was that supposed to be some sort of epiphany?
I am not sure what you were asking when you referred to "Manna from Heaven" but as recently as 2005 many countries have had their debt cancelled or reduced. They are Benin, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guyana, Honduras, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Nicaragua, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, Tanzania, Uganda and Zambia. So if debt forgiveness can be likened to manna from heaven then yes this has happened before.
Afghanistan does not produce cocaine. It is Heroin that is derived from the poppy plant and its production in Afghanistan was going on long before the recent US military operations began in that country. If you want to blame someone for opium production in Afghanistan then blame the Russians, opium production was ramped up in order to buy weapons to fight the Russians. Your ignorance on such simple topics as the difference between heroin and cocaine leads me to the truth that you are obviously not as knowledgeable about anything that you claim to be. You seem to have scant knowledge of a few things but as we all know "a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing". I hope you are not insulted, it is just an accurate observation.
Dave, sorry if I misrepresented you. I dont want to do that.
I put my question again: where will Morgan Tsvangirai get his funding? Please respojnnd to this question. Sorry for the misrepresentation, but please tell me where Tsvangirai is going to get his funding.
I dont see anything wrong or contradictory about Mashie's arguments. I, too want to engage the WB and IMF but only when it is reformed. We are pushing for radical reforms. We as developing countries. Tsvangirai has never raised such an issue. Its difficult to raise because then he would be coming into direct confrontation with his principals. How is he going to change the long standing international economic order that is skewed towards the West.Kindly, give me very pointed answers to these questions, please.
Dave, to err is human, but what good did America's intervention brought to the Afghans.
My analysis does not look to be schizophrenic, unless viewed from a schizophrenia's angle of analysis. What I was simply saying is like, "I will not date this girl as long as she is an alcoholic", because her behaviour comes with bad habits and health hazards.Those institutions must reform Dave.
Lets hear your response to the question put across by Kuthula.
Mashie:
Kuthula, to answer your question, I don't know where he will get the money. I am not an MDC insider and do not know what the financial scenario will look like post elections. I did however speculate on how the financial situation in Zimbabwe will improve. Let me show you something Mugabe said as reported in a recent article:
"He said the electricity problem was affecting the region, including South Africa, and that he would build power stations and distribute generators after the elections."
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=84&art_id=vn20080323082017959C269162
Where will Mugabe get the money to build power stations and distribute generators? Please also speculate on how the situation in Zimbabwe might improve should Mugabe win. Mashie, just for kicks why don't you give this a go as well and we will see what the 2 of you can come up with. No copying guys, let's see some original thoughts.
Mashie your fascination with the Afghan situation seems off topic but I will answer your questions anyway. As in most cases of intervention both positive and negative outcomes occur. The positvie outcomes in Afghanistan are more freedom for women to be educated, in the days of the Taliban it was illegal for women to seek education. Women are also developing a political voice, something unheard of during the Taliban. (As I write this it strikes me as odd that you are defending the Taliban, but as I said before a little knowledge.........) Since the fall of the Taliban the economy of Afghanistan has grown an average of 10%. Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) has increased each year, and it even doubled from 2005 to 2006. The World Bank predicts that in 2008 strong investment will boost Afghanistan’s GDP growth by 13%.
I feel no need to continue, anyway, compared to Zimbabwe Afghanistan is doing very well economically. I suggest that you do some research into the destructive nature of the Taliban and their injustice towards women. I hope that has answerd you question.
Kuthula and Mashie, do you seriously think the WB and IMF will reform to the level you would like to see?
Do both of you support or reject the concept of debt forgiveness?
Don't you think it would be a little hypocritical to support debt forgiveness and then say and we want more money with no strings attached? If I lend someone money and they fail to pay me back I would either never lend them money again or you better beleive there will be some strings attached. I just don't see how you expect the WB and IMF to reform without reform in countries like Zimbabwe where the political process is not transparent and we all know corruption runs rampant. I do acknowledge that this issue is very complex and is simply not a black and white issue. My purpose is to highlight the fact that the problem does not only lie with these international organizations, we as Africans or more specifically Zimbabweans need to get our own house in order. What is you religious nuts say??? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone or for us atheists People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I don't think Mugabe will bring the necessary reform required to give the IMF and WB the confidence to deal with or re engage with Zimbabwe as both of you would like.
Two points:
Not in my right state of mind do I support ESAP disguised as DEBT FORGIVENESS...that's what it is. You must know what the process of debt forgiveness is. You have to qualify for the HIPC INitiative to qualify for DEBT FORGIVENESS. And what is HIPC? Its structural adjustment programme. So yes I dont support debt "forgiveness" in its current ESAP form.
Secondly, yes I feel we can reform these institutions to the extent we wish as the developing countries. You must look at these institutions historically and realise that even now they are undergoing transformation...they cannot simply continue as they are. If they cannot reform to our wxpecattions, then its too bad, but we want them to do so. Its not a sin to have expectations!
You still have not answered my question about where Mugabe will get the money to build power plants and distribute generators. I answered you but you seem to avoid the question when it is asked of you Kuthula.
I'm not sure where Mugabe can get the money. He can either print it or get loans from China...China has been pouring money and has promised to pour more money into Zimbabwe. I hope you are answered...That's my guess.
NOW ANSWER ME: WHERE DO YOU THINK TSVANGIRAI WILL GET MONEY FOR ALL HIS GRAND PROMISES? I need just this one answer.
Kuthula if you take the time to read the very post you are responding to you will see that I answered your question in the first paragraph of my post on March 23 at 10:21 AM. How many times do you need the same answer?
So you guess Mugabe will get the money from China. The point is that you critisize Morgan for making promises with no money to back it up but you do not critisize old Mugsy when he does the exact same thing. You think the Chinese are just handing out money to us with no strings attached. In my opinion the chinese are worse than the western money sources. I am willing to put money right now that China will never even consider forgiving a debt. You are basically just exchanging one colonial master for another. Go ask the Zambians how that are being treated by the Chinese.
Dave,First and foremost I do not support the Taliban, neither do I support US Army barbarism in Afghanistan, but i feel for the Afghans quest for self determination. Your perception Dave of Afghanistan is shocking. You talk like may be your buddy George W Bush. Afghans will find it hard to forgive you for such a warped version of their situation. You seem to be glorifying terrorism. Afghans are living under constant terror, infrastructure is in ruins, civilians, women and children are butchered every day, all according to you in the name of allowing Afghan women to take off the Hijab and drive a car. Is that the cost they should pay to drive a car? Are you serious Dave? You seem not to be sensitive and considerate. The world was made to believe initially that the purpose of the war was to remove the Taliban as punishment for not handing over Osama Bin Laden, and to capture Osama Bin Laden, but now it appears as if it is to impose American values, culture, custom, morals, religion and beliefs at gun point.
Dave you claim Afghanistan's economy is doing very well with a strong potential of significant growth in due course, but the truth is 90% of its public spending comes from the begging bowl, at the mercy of international donors. Take away that 90% you will see what exactly has been left of Afghanistan's economy following the invasion. The pledges that the coalition of invaders had made are not fully met, there is dithering and possible reneging. Zimbabwe got its lessons from pledges made at the Lancaster House agreement. 40% of the donor funds for reconstruction gets back to the rich donor countries through corporate profits, consultants and other costs. The contractors come from donor countries who are being rewarded for their participation and support in the invasion.They use material and labour from their own countries. They do not source it from local Afghans. The costs of the projects are often inflated. Thats corporate imperialism. Is this what you wish for Zimbabwe? Not under a Marxist revolutionary.
Heroin production has short up sharply as a direct result of hopelessness brought about by the US invasion which destroyed other legal means for their livelihood. Do not blame the Russians for the sharp rise. Afghanistan is doing far better than Zimbabwe only in kow-towing the line drawn for them by the US Administration. Dave little knowledge is dangerous.You should have a heart with conscience.
Mashie:
Mashie you obviously know very little about the history of Afghanistan. Your support of the Taliban is laughable. I am not a teacher though and so I will only suggest that you do more reading to increase your knowledge of the situation. I don''t see how or why you would draw any comparisons between Zimbabwe and Afghanistan, there is no similarity at all. Why are you so up in arms about the united states anyway, the US is presence in Zimbabwe is minimal at best. Do you think the US cares about Zimbabwe as much as it does Afghanistan? Please Mashie, let's keep our discussion to Zimbabwe where it seems you have slightly more knowledge of what is going on, clearly your your understanding of events further afield is severly lacking.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Mugabe is so done. What will you do now that your master has been defeated.
Maybe I might consider you as my next leader.
Kuthula, how do you feel about what is happening in our home? Are you not in the least bit excited at the prospect of change for the better? Even you must admit now that the path we were on was not the right one.
I find it ironic that the key to Mugabes undoing was lack of food due to the absence of the commercial farmers. Like I said before if Mugabe had only taken his time and trained would be indigenous farmers you might be the one rubbing my face in Mug's victory. As long as Zimbabweans were well fed Mugabe was going to continue leading the country.
I would not like to be your leader, however Kuthula I would like to make a request. Once Morgan takes the presidency (If that happens) I would like you to hold his feet to the fire just as you have been doing. As a journalist it is your duty to keep the political machine truthful and in check. With Mugabe out of the way I can see no reason why you cannot be a beacon of truth shining light on political injustice perpetrated by whichever party happens to be in power.
Kuthula never held Mugabe's feet to the fire - why then your request? All of Mugabe's friends have no integrity to speak of.
Ha Ha Ha Mugabe and ZanuPf is history!!
Witmoer
That's my point witmoer. He never did it to Mugabe but since Mugabe is gone maybe he can develop some integrity now. Hopefully he won't simply switch his love for Mugabe to the new leader of Zimbabwe.
Dave,
With all due respect I feel I can engage you rather than this rough edged racist called Witmoer. Sure, I have barely criticized Mugabe and you know why. He has not been a firm believer of classical economics and its neoliberal project. Tsvangirai is. And should he win and become the next president or whoever becomes president, I will RABIDLY scrutinize their ideas should they be tilting towards Neoliberalism.
So, yes, I will continue telling the truth from my firm conviction of being anti-neoliberalism (and I am not afraid to point this out). Its violent and I hate it with passion. I will not relent.
Dave I am not up in arms with the US, but I am telling you the exact facts regarding Afghanistan.90 percent of its public spending comes from the begging bowl, at the mercy of international donors. 40 percent of the donor funds gets back to the rich donor countries through corporate profits, consultance, etc. I think Dave you equally need to do more reading about Afghanistan.
You think Zanu PF and Mugabe are History, the game is not over, its still a long way.
The opposition MDC Tsvangirai won an extra 2 seats in the House of Assembly, but Zanu PF had more votes added up together. The total votes cast for Zanu PF are more than those for MDC, which makes Zanu PF more popular than MDC judging by the total votes won by the 97 MPs in the House of Assembly to the 99 MDC MPs. So its not over until it is over.
Mashie
What is with you and Afghanistan? Enough already, I don't really care, we have more pressing issues to think about in Zimbabwe. Maybe you should go to Afghanistan and fight with the Taliban if you care so much.
Mugabe is done. Why not let this 84 year old man retire? He has done what he can for our people and we appreciate his efforts but if is time for a new generation to decide what our destiny is going to be. What does it say about Zimbabweans that only one man in the country (in your mind) is capable of running the country. I believe that you underestimate us.
Dave,
I think it was premature to celebrate and say Mugabe is done. As events unfold...and you should have known, things are not going to be as black and white as many of us thought.
You should pay particular, very particular attention to events such as the service chiefs' declaration. I am not supporting their stance but I am only saying you should have considered them very carefully in forming your opinions. And I hope now you are also considering the unravelling events. You know very well that when these guys say something like this they mean it.
I think Mashie paid attention to the situation. Its becoming ever more difficult.
I have nothing with Afghanistan, if you check on my initial post, I used it as an example of how selfish and destructive American intervention can be.
These are the same forces Tsvangirai is bedding with. I understand we have got more pressing issues, but I believe strongly that British and American involvement are merely to protect selfish interests. They do not serve meaningful and sustainable development for the indegeneous people.The British gvt released millions of pounds to the Opposition, and guess what? some of it went to some gullible electoral officials who altered and inflated figures infavour of Tsvangirai and Makoni. Their defence is that their mathematics went wrong somewhere.No wonder why Gordon Brown was demanding that the results be released immediately, No wonder why Tsvangirai had to declare himself winner prematurely in violation of the Electoral laws. Its not over until it is over.Now Zimbabwe is being promised Sky and heaven by the same people who could not compensate their kith and kin for the farms whose ownership was illegitimate, illegal and immoral.The vote that Tsvangirai got was out of coercion. The sanctions were used as an instrument which only Tsvangirai can influence its imposition and withdrawal.
Mashie:
Mashie please show us evidence that the UK gave Tsivangirai money to buy votes. Secondly Mashie, it is not only the UK who wants results released, all Zimbabweans want the results released, I can't beleive you would suggest that releasing the results in a timely fashion would indicate some sort of wrongdoing.
Kuthula, I admit that I was premature in saying Mugabe was done, I guess I was overly excited like most Zimbabweans. I should have known ZPF would not leave without at least attempting to hang on one way or another.
Dave, you know very well that Australia under John Howard pledged lots of money to Tsvangirai's MDC around AUS$18m, Gordon Brown personally said that the British gvt has increased funding to opposition forces in Zim to a figure around 3.3million pounds. I do not think you have any grounds to dispute that, the evidence available is Gordon brown's own testimony and John Howard.
I also want the accurate results out, but I never heard of this kind of pressure from anywhere when Iraq held its elections under occupation. I would like to ask you Dave, How long did the Iraq election results take to be released?, So why this obsession with Zimbabwe? Why do they want those results? I have never heard any gvt or African body demanding to monitor or observe elections in US or UK. What do they want in African affairs?. Are their elections above board?, or they are driven by this mentality that Africans are inferior, and incapable of running their own affairs, they need a western chaperon in everything they do.
Mashie:
Your sense of paranois towards the west is so old. You are so against the west that you fail to see the threat that the Chinese pose. I can tell you that the west did not flood our country with inferior goods as the chinese do. It is the Chinese who really view us an inferior, they could care less about good governance in the countries they deal with, they just view us as a resource for their explosive growth. The Chinese are going to take our steel, coal and any other raw material they can get their hands on and in return we get inferior shoes and clothing which has put our textile industry out of business. Don't talk to me about the injustice of the west without also talking about the way we are treated by our so called friends from the east. You are simply accepting the Chinese as your new master.
the reason why you have never seen the international community clamour for results is because this action of holding back the results is unprecedented. Even in Zimbabwe we have not had to wait this long for results.
Mashie, I am getting sick of you, your views are even worse than those of Kuthula, if that is possible. You really need to forget about what the west is doing and think about what is going on in Zimbabwe. I have never heard of a person who thinks delayed election results was a good thing.
Dave,You might be getting sick of me, my views might be worse than Kuthula's, but that is out of the question, those are my views, which I will hold until convinced otherwise. Convinced by facts and logic not insults, propaganda or praise singing.
I think Dave you agree with me that Zimbabwe's economy has never been this bad, secondly Zimbabwe has never held four elections at one go, thirdly Zimbabwe's detractors' desperation for regime change have swelled, multiple times, hence the doubling and trembling of efforts and resources towards that cause.
So when ZEC talk about logistical problems don't you feel for them in the current prevailing economic environment in Zimbabwe.
If there are genuine issues of miscalculations raised by a contesting party which have a direct effect on the overall outcome, should ZEC ignore and proceed in announcing results that are inaccurate.For instance one polling station Rimbi Primary School forms at that polling station indicated that President Mugabe got 612 votes, but forms sent to the command centre indicated that he got 187. When such errors are discovered before or even after the announcement, should they be ignored? I think we should focus on what is causing the delay and whether it is sensible and understandable.
If you see China as another colonial master, then the argument is which colonial master is prefered, but I see them as a partner in business and economic development.This is what President Abdoulaye Wade of Senegal had to say "When it comes to China and Africa, the EU and the US want to eat their cake and have it too." So my views are not strange or alien to African perspective.
Mashie:
Mashie, how can anyone expect to find errors before results have been released? Your reasoning is ass backwards. So you want to find errors without even having results? I can't believe you are using the 4 elections at once excuse......are you suggesting Zimbabweans are incapable of quickly counting 4 items as opposed to 1? How stupid do you think we are?
With regards to China, I have seen enough of their actions to know what kind of partners they are. Go and ask a Zambian what kind of partner China is. Here is a quote from an article regarding this topic
"Li Baodong, China’s ambassador in Lusaka, said Beijing might cut diplomatic relations with Zambia if voters elected Michael Sata, an opposition candidate, as president."
Isn't this what you are accusing the west of doing?
On another note I don't appreciate the overt racism towards blacks by Chinese in mainland China, they are about 60 years behind the west in this regard. You can do your own research on that, I am not interested in getting into a "who is more racist" argument.
Kuthula, how do you feel about Chinese actions in Africa? Should they be using their economic influence to prevent things like Darfur or should they simply mind their own business and show no concern for the actions of despotic governments on their people?
Dave, come on,I think on this one you are just argueing for the sake of arguing,how did ZESN come out with the figures they published, before the results were announced? how did MDC come out with the 60%, 59%, 55% and 50.3% they announced?. The counting process was witnessed by Agents from the contesting parties, the results were displayed outside the polling stations, but these results are not the same as those sent to the command centres.There were errors and miscalculations which have been exposed.Are you saying they should be ignored, or may be you are in solidarity with the hand behind the errors and miscalculations.
I do not know whose reasoning is backward here. This is mere common sense.There is a particular ward that has been cited and the figures given out, the errors pointed out, so that whoever wants to be convinced can go and check for themselves, Even Tsvangirai hasn't responded to that. But Dave and only him finds its logical that the announcement should proceed because no one should know results that are pasted outside every polling station. No these people are not blind Dave.
Mashie:
kuthula, I saw that you called me a "rough edged racist". I will have your blog closed for libel.... and have you expelled from Canada for slander. Please reread McMaster University's Code of Conduct. Remember, you are now staying in a civilised country.
WITMOER
I dont like it when people threaten me neither am I afraid of threats. I did not say that thing lightly. I have evidence of your "rough edged racism".
Please do not even try to threaten me, I dont know how many times I should tell you that. Who are you to threaten me like that? If you knew that we were living in a civilised world then you would not be such a rough edged racist!
Do you think even if this blog was closed i would care? My life does not revolve around a mere blog!
Get a life!!!
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(j) Expulsion: Loss of all academic privileges at the University for an indefinite period. The
expulsion is noted on the Student's transcript (see Section 47 for further details).
Just remember kuthula, you are the only person on this blog who is readily identifiable....
Be carefull, be very carefull. You are not living in a kraal in that country commonly known as the Zimbabwe Ruins....
You are such a joke! You utter racist remarks and think that people will not label you thus? Besides your thinking is that of a person who believes they are talking to an imbecile. And for that I still call you a rough edge racist. Go ahead and complain to McMaster. I am sure you know their address and offices and all if you can quote their rules.
Go ahead. I insist dont threaten me. This is the last time I am responnding to you. In future all your rough edged racist remarks will be deleted here.
KUTHULA MATSHAZI
Mmmm.... Maybe i should. Giroux could join you in Harare to experience anti-neolibiralism for himself.
Witmoer has never contributed any sensible arguments from all that I have read from his posts. It has been insult after insult. It is surprising that he talks of a civilised life style.So Witmoer was on a mission to provoke to the extreme so as to court a re-action. Poor him, he claims civilisation which he knows little about.
Enough!!!!! Get back to the real discussion. I know with old Mugs keeping the results to himself there isn't much to do but wait, but the current discourse is not at all productive.
Mashie, do you truly want another 5 years of Mugabe and Zanu PF? If Yes, why?
"Lawyers for the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission claim it would be too dangerous to release the results of the country's recent presidential elections, and warn that they may not comply with any court order to make them public, a journalist at Zimbabwe High Court told CNN."
Mashie, obviously the timely release of the election results has nothing to do with any of the reasons you stated earlier. The delay is akin to people not wanting to tell the emperor he had no clothes. Where is the respect for the rule of law? Dangerous to release the results? Dangerous for who? How do you not realize that this situation is not right?
The fact that neither you or Kuthula has spoken out against this obvious tactic to subvert the will of the Zimbabwean public speaks volumes. Neither one of you truly cares about the Zimbabwean people, it is clear that your loyalties lie with the party and not the people. I guess you have the right to feel this way but it is sad to see a fellow Zimbabwean behave in this manner. In Kuthula's case I can understand the silence in a way but Mashie you have no basis to continue your blind support for an administration that no longer has the best interests of the Zimbabwean people at heart.
Kuthula is this the type of Zimbabwe you want for your child? Don't you want to be able to raise your child in a Zimbabwe where she can be around people who share her heritage? If things continue along their current path your children will have no emotional ties to the only place where they would actually feel at home. If things don't change now you can kiss the dream of raising your family in Zimbawe goodbye, if indeed you have that dream.
Dave, what will be left of ZEC's integrity should they announce results which they are convinced have been falsified? After such an announcement are they going to tell the people to wait for another announcement of a result that reflects the true will of the people?
Everyone wants the results, now now, but a result that reflects the true will of the majority. The errors and miscalculations should be dealt with first.
Whether Mugabe and Zanu Pf for another 5yrs, the electorate is the jury.
Mashie:
How can the electorate be the jury if the decision of that jury is witheld? Again you are showing your lack of reason. It is not the ZEC that thinks the results are incorrect it is Zanu PF that is blocking the results that are unfavorable to them. The fact that you have to lie about the true nature of the situation only further goes to show you and others are trying to subvert the truth and the will of the people. Mugs is now pushing for the results to be sealed forever and a rerun. Where is it in the constitution that if the sitting president does not like the results he can order a rerun. We are watching the continued subversion of democracy in our country, I am disgusted.
Dave, I don't know which type of Zimbabwe you are talking about. I want a Zimbabwe which is not a client state of Britain or US. That's all. It can be in any form but not a client state. That I don't want. That is the dream country I wish for Thamu and Sakhile. A country where we shall live in peace without the meddling of these two countries. Also, I dont want a country ruled by Tsvangirai. It can be anyone else. Please visit this website www.glob.co.zw and tell me what you think of the MDC Transitional Plan. Kindly come back to me on that one. Plse, plse, plse.
You know what Kuthula, from your description Zimbabwe today is the Zimbabwe you love, Zimbabwe is not ruled by Tsivangirai and Zimbabwe is not a puppet of the west. The funny thing is that you are not living in Zimbabwe, you did not have the courage to return there for the birth of your child and you do not speak of returning anytime soon. It appears you care more about thwarting the UK and US more than you do about the recovery of our country. Everything comes back to your hatred of the west even though that is where you currently reside. You are if nothing else a hypocrite. You don't mind Zimbabweans living under the current conditions just as long as you don't have to.
I tried to view the transition plan but the website would not open, maybe you can post it on your blog. It's also obvious that the website you directed me to is not neutral, the anti west slant is all too obvious.
Your hatred of the west totally consumes you, how sad that you are blinded to all other possibilities beside what your paranoid mind will allow you to see. When are you moving from Canada? When are you going to take your Canadian child to Zimbabwe where she belongs? Funny how you run from your so called belief in the integrity of Zimbabwean elections once Mugs does not win. The election observers declared the elections to be fair and yet Zanu PF refuses to let us see the results. I am embarrassed that you are a Zimbabwean.
Kuthula I was finally able to open the so called transition plan. You have really sunk to new depths. It is so obvious that this document has been falsified, the wording in parts is just outrageous. The fact that you believe this document really makes me doubt your journalistic qualifications.
The first clue that this is a fake document is the date, March 25, 2008. The document mentions that their were rumors that Grace had already departed to Malaysia, this is important because these rumors did not surface until after March 25, so unless this document was written by someone capable of time travel this document is false.
Dave, the US and UK are not the West and I said it very clearly. I am opposed to UK and the US and not the WEST. Why do you trip yourself. I also did not say I want Zimbabwe as is, but that I would rather have a Zimbabwe ruled by anyone else but Tsvangirai. There is a whole lot of difference in this statement. To make inferences that appeal to your sensibilities is something else. I cant be held responsible for your exercise of your freedom of thought.
Well as for the document I wanted to hear your thoughts. As predicted I knew you would take a narrow approach and view it as a CIO document that is worth dismissing. Giving you the benefit of doubt and say its CIO, dont you think that it might be an indication of how those said threats could be countered? What might seem an irrelevant paper might actually be containing a huge message. On the other hand, if we just cast it aside and say its the work of the CIO, we might be shocked after all these things contained are being implemented. I thought you would engage it a little bit more thought, considering that we are operating in a complex situation. What you have showed me on the contrary is that you have - with all due respect - an idle, dichotonomous mind. You must be vigilant all the times and engage with these issues in a more sophisticated manner. You surely can do better Dave!
Dave, what is witheld is not the verdict of the jury, it is the corrupted will of a few gullible electoral officials. Incontrovertible evidence to the effect have been adduced, the respective polling stations have been mentioned, the V11 and V13 forms and the figures they reflect quoted. What more do you want?. If there is any doubt anywhere, why is it that no jounalist from the western media who were on cloud nine, overdosing the world with news from the black market more than twelve times a day are dead silent about it.
Morgan Tsvangirai is on panic mode, and for the first time trying to engage SADC.
Mashie:
Mashie, foreign journalists are quiet because Zanu PF banned them from entering the country to report on the election and those that came in anyway were arrested. Sorry Mashie try again.
Kuthula, I am sorry but I simply cannot take a false document seriously, you may want to analyse it in detail but what is the point. There is a point in the document where it talks about the laundering of Australian money into the MDC, would Mr. Biti really use that term to describe a donation? Really Kuthula, I don't know if this is a CIO document or not but I know it's a fake. If I allow myself to take propaganda seriously then I am falling into the trap of those who wrote that trash. Did you ask yourself how this document was released, did you wonder about the timing? C'mon Kuthula, you are being very naive. I thought that no matter what our disagreements philosophically there were certain elements like democracy and the will of the people that we both agreed upon but I see that is not the case, you are as bad as any of Mugabe's cronies.
To the other point there are only 2 choices of who can rule Zimbabwe, so if you say anyone but Morgan Tsivangirai I will obviously assume you mean Robert Mugabe, no one else is even in serious contention, sorry next time I will assume you could be taking about Peter Johns or Oliver Mtukudzi.
Dave why do you think that there are only two possible people who an run Zimbabwe? I think Peter Johns can, if he wanted or even Mtukudzi. Why do you mock them? Was reagan not an actor or Arnie? There is no way I confined my choices to those two. I mean just about anyone...maybe you could be the other person after Tsvangirai who cannot be a leader. Although your level of comprehension of issues is above that of Tsvangirai you have fatal impartiality and dogmatic problems.
It is interesting that one one breath you say you cannot analyse the MDC document but on the very same breath you are analysising it. How would you have made nonsense of it if you did not analyse it? Its good that you analysed it. You are speaking from an informed position, but obviously you dont agree with the contents and its authenticity. That's very good Dave. Instead of just arguing for the sake of arguing. For your record I did not say the document was authentic (as you try to imply) neither did I say it was false. Rather I was more focsed on getting views and specifically interested what its implication was if it was either true and false. Obviously you chose to pursue the false side and forgot to pursue the other part which might be worth pursuing. It proves my point that you are partisan. It would not have hurt you to explore the possible other side. It would have shown us that you approach issues with a clear mind and wide perspective.
Kuthula, we are limited in Zimbabwe and all countries to the people on the ballot. The choices we had in this last election were Mugabe, Tsivangirai and Makoni, no one else. Only two had a serious chance of winning with the Zimbabwean people. So again if you don't want Morgan the only other choice is Mugabe, unless you are suggesting that you have some magical way of adding others to the ballot.
Obviously I read the document, how else would I come to the conclusion that it was complete nonsense. Once I was able to make that conclusion I decided not to take it seriously, is that so hard for you to understand?
Just as you are partisan so am I. I am in the camp of anyone but Mugabe, the totally useless and incompetant leader. Mugabe needs to accept his defeat and transfer power to the winner. No matter what you feel about Morgan I know you realize that he is more than likely the choice of the Zimbabwean people.
But Dave I was not restricting myself to this election. Why did you think so? Is there anywhere I implied I was strictly talking about this election alone?
I mean at anytime I dont want Tsvangirai...10 days from now, 15 years later and even 40 years.
Kuthula, unlike you I live in the here and now. Right now like it or not those are our choices. If you are currently living 10 years or 40 years in the future then I cannot address your concerns because I am not currently there. I would appreciate it if you limited yourself to 2008. In 2008 if your choice is not Morgan then it is obviously Mugabe, you don't get to live in "Kuthula Fantasy Land" where anyone can be president of Zimbabwe.
Mugabe is blocking results and has banned political rallies even in the face of a potential presidential run off. I speculate that Morgan got more than the required 50.1% and this is why Mugabe wants a run off without releasing the results. Mugabe in his old age has transformed into nothing more than a dictatorial thug.
It is now time that the international community took a stronger stand against this man. We can no longer suffer leaders like this in Africa. There are those like you and Mashie who cannot get over the past and are doomed to remain there in your thinking but for the sake of the people of Africa we need a new generation of leader who will look to the future and form relationships with any country that will benefit the people of Zimbabwe. As Africans we should be sick and tired of the mismanagement of the 20th century, it is time for us to break free from the mental chains that you and Mashie struggle with and walk into a new and prosperous future, Mugabe will not and cannot take us in that direction.
Ha ha ha, I sound a bit like Obama. Oh well I could do worse.
Dave, Tsvangirai wants to put the chains back. We had broken off the chains, and unfortunately for him Zimbabweans in their majority will not allow it.He is a very obedient servant of slave masters.
Mashie:
Like a true liberal you are dangerous Dave. The problem with liberalism is that it sees no conflict or power relations in processes, relationships and institutions. That's very dangerous and very simplistic. Mashie, yes, you are still picking cotton in the fields and that is what liberals like Dave don't see. They see a perfect world and anyone who dares see conflict is ridiculed and told that his thinking is marginal. Dangerous liberals!!!!!!
Yes Kuthula I am a liberal and I am not afraid at all to say it. The problem with people like you is that you allow these supposed power relationships and institutions to overide your common sense. You would rather let a Zimbabwean child starve than allow a white person to farm the land, you would rather let the Chinese strip of of all of our natural resources for a useless pair of shoes than deal with all nations and make a deal that is best for Zimbabweans. That is the problem with people like you, all principles and no solutions. When you mature you will see that principles don't put gas in the tank or food in the pantry.
The irony of this whole conversation is that you live in CANADA, one of the most liberal nations in the world. You would have a leg to stand on if you live in Zimbabwe, you could say "I would rather live free at home than as a slave under a liberal Canadian government". Instead you ran like a slave on the underground railroad straight into the loving liberal arms of Canada. every day you show us what a joke your views really are. You talked about how these power relationships are terrible, power relationships like the commonwealth?? which Canada is the 2nd largest contributor?? You are a total hypocrite, you suckle from the teet of liberalism and then turn around and say the milk is sour. Kuthula Kuthula Kuthula......what are we going to do with you?
By the way that silly document your alluded to earlier has been widely reported to be a forgery, I suppose you still want to take it seriously...ha ha.
Dave, I am glad that I have the intellect to see that the negative past is being camouflaged and repacked and offered to me as a new product.I will not accept it.I don't buy recycled garbage.
Mashie:
Mashie, I suspect you barely know up from down let alone what is being offered by getting rid of Mugabe. Your grasp of the situation seems elementary at best. I however am not worried about what packages you will receive and which you won't because like it of not change is coming and it does not hinge upon your perceived intellect or lack thereof.
You make it sound dichotomous that its Chinese versus White. I never said that. Typical of your misrepresentations and tendency to lie, I never said that "let a Zimbabwean child starve than allow a white person to farm the land, you would rather let the Chinese strip of of all of our natural resources". Its you who is saying it. I said we want to create a NATIONAL ECONOMY. Is national economy equivalent to "let a Zimbabwean child starve than allow a white person to farm the land, you would rather let the Chinese strip of of all of our natural resources?" What's wrong with you Dave. We love the West. What we dont like about them is their double standards and theoir refusal to realise that we should own our own wealth and resources...also try to subjugate us. That is what I dont want.
You dont have to be ashamed of being a liberal, I think what you need to do is be concerned about addressing the fatal shortcomings of liberalism rather than bask in a contradictory and highly hypocrital system.
No, I dont allow power relations to overcome me, rather I face them head on and tell them as they are. Yet you, a liberal pretend that the power relations dont exist.
For your information, I love liberalism and yet I also scrutinise it. According to your reasoning, I am guilty of living in a liberal country. Why would I be guilty? Yes, Canada is liberal and I chose to live here just as Zimbabwe is liberal and I will return one day. I dont see any problem there. The fact that I criticise liberalism should not get you freaking. Liberalism has double standards. Accept Dave!!! You know it. And if you dont want to accept, its because it hurts you that I expose your double standards.
Dave, Yes everyone would like change, but not the kind of change that is offered by Tsvangirai. The kind of change that is offered by Zanu Pf and President Mugabe, is the sort of change that resonates with the majority. That is why the popular vote went to Zanu PF in the House of Assembly. Your wishes in this respect will ever remain wishes.Black Zimbabweans do not hate whites.They hate unfair practices. There are a lot good white farmers in Zimbabwe and they are still carrying on with their businesses.
Mashie:
Mashie you are delusional.
Kuthula you are all hypothetical. The facts on the ground in Zimbabwe right now is that children are starving, China is currently robbing us blind of our resources. By supporting Mugabe you are basically allowing thiese things to continue. Get you head out of the clouds and live in the real world. You talk about being treated fairly, WAKE UP!! While you wait to be treated fairly people are dying.
Dave its either you are a hope less hypocrite or else plain simply damaged by your own bias. You criticise me for raising the issue of fairness and yet you are using the same FAIRNESS to criticise me. You invoke the suffering of people and how I am supposed to mind them and yet you blast me of talking about the very same fairness. Do you see how contradictory your logic is?
I have nothing more to say.
Kuthula i have no idea what on earth you are talking about. Are you trying to mix things up here? Fairness can be applied to a whole range of topics we have discussed and one has nothing to do with the other. So I am sorry if you get easily confused but fairness with regards to how countries deal with one another has nothing at all to do with fairness ion terms of how elections are held. I do not expect to be treated fairly by other nations be they China or UK, but I do expect fair elections in our own country. Keep up Kuthula.
Dave, you are too shallow and too simplistic in your analysis. You want to tackle the symptoms and not the root cause of the suffering. The route to total emancipation demands sacrifices. We have made ultimate sacrifices before and we are still determined to fight our way through. Morgan Tsvangirai remains the architect of the suffering together with the destructive imperial forces he has teamed up with.
Dave, Fairness is applicable across the board. Sure, circumstances can differ but fairness is fairness. It should applied wherever and under specific conditions.
You are the one who is getting twisted by logic because of your biased mind.
What are you even talking about Kuthula, this is your usual tactic. Once you have lost an argument you will change the subject, fairness? How abstract can you get? You attempt to win by making the argument about something that cannot be argued against.............. fairness.
See now Dave, I am becoming a victim of your inadequacies. Fairness is abstract and yet still applicable to specific situations. Are you suggesting that what you were talking about was not fairness? I'm sorry if I mischaracterised your thoughts. Tell me then what you were arguing for? But don't start blaming people when you reach your limits of thinking.
The problem is not my limits of thinking but your. You cannot see the difference in expecting free and fair elections which is the right of all people and the expectation of being treated fairly in international trade which is actually not a right. In fact OPEC does not treat the world fairly with its control over the supply of oil but we are willing to accept that.
In summary Kuthula fair elections are a right with fair trade is not. Is that simple enough for you? If not I might be able to get some Canadian High School students to explain that for you if it is beyond your mental abilities.
You are right Dave to suggest that I am constrained in terms of thinking, but only because of your fatally flawed neoclassical economics logic that views only political rights as having effect and neglecting the equally indispensable economic rights. That is why you and your ideological colleagues are seeing it fit to violate trade unions rights, refuse to guarantee your hard working employees secure jobs that pay decent wages and benefits. You lay them off willy nilly to cushion your own fat salaries and destroy the world in the name of free trade that does not have rights. Yeah, you think like a brilliant PhD...Good job!!! Fairness is only for political rights!!!
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