The Flip Side with Kuthula Matshazi
The World Debate programme screened by the British Broadcasting Corporation from Cape Town, South Africa provided an opportunity once again to hear from some Zimbabweans who aspire to lead in the widely acclaimed “post Mugabe era”.
Whilst watching it, I made a Shylock-like bet with my friend that if the forum, during their discussion ever mentioned social justice issues such as empowerment of the common man to effectively participate in the economy, then I offer my finger to be cut off. Luckily for me, and as I expected nothing of that sort was ever mentioned. More...
30 comments:
Shamwari you're nothing but a blood-sucking commie zany pf apologist. Social justice yako when you're safely ensconced in Canada wont fly with some of us. Thats why musina mabasa kuCanada ikoko. Here in the states, CAPITALISM WORKS and munhu wese ari kudya tichifara tose zvese nemaillegal mexicans. Social justice yako when there is no money to begin with haishande. What is needed is equal opportunity which you dont know about coz you think land was fairly redistributed. Food for thought. Thats what you want with the rest of the economy what happened with the land. Social justice my foot.
Thanks for your comments. That I am a ZPF and communist is non of your business. I will not lose sleep over that. Call me whatever you want. I am exercising my democratic right, given by you capitalist inclined democrats, to choose to be whatever I want to be. Be what you want to be and I don’t give one inch about what you are. Bring you ideas forward and let us debate them instead of insults. That’s a sign of pettiness.
Unfortunately, you do not even know anything about Canada. If you did you would know that the Canadian economy has been recording good progress, one of the best among the industrialised countries. Noone asked you about capitalism. But even if you think capitalism work, why does 50million Americans without health insurance? Why are the ghettos still persisting, why is inequality so wide. It obviously shows that you have a very narrow understanding of issues. Such people are dangerous because they really do not know much except the surface. You are bragging about all these things you are (and maybe some that you are not) because of social justice and yet at you convenience you say it does not work. Get your mind coherent and have a clear understanding of what you want to say. I suppose if I was saying things that you like to hear you would be not telling me about my being “safely ensconced in Canada”. Actually, I do not mean to change you but put forward facts. Don’t feel obliged to agree with me, but engage my facts and likewise put forward facts that would be plausible.
Also, remember that you are writing to public forum and therefore must be wary of being found to be uninformed.
You don't present facts. Canada has a publicly funded health care system for its citizens while the US has private. Trying to compare the two systems is fundamentally incorrect. Canada is currently having problems with dealing with the strain cause by massive immigration on its health system with some advocating a switch to the US system.
That is a fact that a I challenge you to deny.
Capitalism has nothing to do with financial equality, questioning why ghettos persists has nothing to do with capitalism. You too have a narrow understanding of issues if you can't connect the historical effect that a racist society has had on the proceeding generations of black Americans and other minorities. Capitalism does not guarantee everyone will be rich, but it is a system where one can change his social class given the right work ethic and time. Something that cannt be done in many other societies.
Can you deny this second fact?
In response to your article you critisize Mutambara by saying
"By failing to articulate the red hot ambitions of the ordinary people to own and benefit from their resources, Mutambara once again failed to show us how if, as the leader of Zimbabwe, he is going to empower us "
Can you expand a little on this point by explaining exactly how Mandiwanza or your own views on how ZPF is going to go about doing this. It appears your criticism was one sided so I would like to give you the opportunity to give us the ZPF side so we all can see the clear differences in policy.
P.S. I noticed how few comments you were getting and decided maybe you did have a little more time to waste on my comments.
I think your argument is totally outrageous to say the list. I believe you might having a personal vendetta with Mutambara. First of all there is nothing wrong about liberalism and neoliberal economies because if you look at the rest of the world those are the economies that are doing better than the rest.
The problem with the land issue in Zimbabwe is that it was never distributed equally among most Zimbabweans but used as a tool by the evil regime which l assume you support but don't understand the effects of it because you well ensconced in Canada. If there is something wrong with the Western world then why don't you go back to your country. What are you doing in Canada, you should be helping your comrade back home to fix everything the ZANU way.
The problem with ZANU pf is that they have been in power for a very long time, and they have made numerous promises that have gone unfulfilled------ever since they assumed power. Kanti sizingane thina esizahlala sithenjiswa isiwidzi sogodo esingekhoyo.
The point here Kuthula my friend is that the so called Fishmongers have been giving us money ever since we attained independence but the money has never gone out to improve people’s lives. All we know is that we owe those institutions millions if not billions of dollars------- how and why, we all don't know. But every one can agree that the money was borrowed by our government on behalf of all of us. Kodwa aikwazi sonnke ukuthi yanceda ngani njalo ngaphi, Kuthula!
The truth is that you can give or lend money to those guys (Zanu pf) because they will misuse it. The last thing that those professional institutions want is to end up being asked to cut our debt because the money borrowed was taken by an illegal regime.
First, I am not driven by the number of responses, but their quality. Besides I have quite a lot of other things to do. I do not sit and wait on the blog for people to respond. I come to the blog to engage meaningful ideas: yes your arguments are logically sound until you get racist or you begin lying for no apparent reason.
It is fundamentally correct to compare Canada to the US. But obviously you have created the scenario because I never compared the two, but I will, nevertheless satisfy you today. Or if I should not compare the two, then I should shame the US health system. For goodness sake, the US is the richest nation on earth and yet it cannot offer its people basic security such as healthcare. What does that tell us about neoliberal capitalism?
But of course, the neoliberal system and yourself do not believe in such sovereignty benevolence. It is true that Canadians are debating the form of the health care, but polls everywhere show that healthcare is the number priority for Canadians and they want it to remain in public ownership. Of course they are die-hard neoliberals and reformists who are calling for the dismantling of everything public including healthcare to change it to the US system. When they see healthcare, they see $$$$ only. You insinuate immigrants are a problem that has strained the healthcare and yet you do not tell us that they bring in billions of dollars to the economy!! In fact these right wing neoliberals also want to actually integrate Canada with the US. You have just shown beyond doubt your right wing roots, which by the way are fuelling racism underpinned by immigration issues. But there is nothing I can do except to just to let you know what ideas inform your immigration viewpoints.
Capitalism has everything to do with (in)equality. Capitalism stratifies society. It bases its fundamental ideological framework on ideas such as those of Locke who see society stratified between the landlords and the poor who are supposed to live within the “barest minimum to keep them working”. Racism on its own brother was a means of subjugating other races so as to justify white supremacy for the purposes of creating themselves as a privileged race that should, by tradition always be well endowed and dominant over other races. That what the white racists did and then extended that dominance into the arena of opportunities and wealth. Don’t limit the effects of racism so that we do not see its hand in creating inequalities in both social and economic spheres. In fact, the books that I have read say that people who are defensive and downplay the extent which racism has affected social relations are racists themselves.
Yes I know that capitalism does not guarantee everyone riches, yet the books and its advocates do so. Is that not the reason that you, unwittingly say just below this point that - simplistically I think – that one can “change [their] social class given the right work ethic and time” . That’s the greatest vague statement that disguises a lot of deceptions. Many people, such as the coal miners in UK have worked hard all their lives and end up poor or even sick. It is not a rule to suggest that with the right ethic people will change classes. Maybe, yes, from the poor to the extreme poor…with all these lay offs. Many other societies do not even need to do what neoliberal capitalism does. They have their meritocratic systems that don’t subscribe to the neoliberal capitalist system.
Its simple how I propose going about to empower the people. I refer you to our previous discussions, especially the first one where I caught you lying red handed titled “Simple reason missing in Zimbabwe debates” of 1 June. I also refer you to the recent government initiative on indigenous ownership. That is my preferred choice. I know you might say, as you did the last time, I must come up with my own ideas, but I choose to regurgitate what others have done just as much as you do with the Hobbesian, Lockean, Adam Smith, etc ideas. We need to build a national economy that is driven by as many Zimbabweans as possible so that the majority benefit from our own wealth. Maybe immigrants will not be a problem in the West when such a pattern spreads across Africa.
I think I do not have to tell you how ZPF is going to go about empowering the people because they have already done so. They redistributed land and now they are redistributing wealth in terms of changing company ownership structure. I know this because they have actually done it. I do not know how Mandiwanza could do it because I am neither his friend nor spokesman. But from my knowledge of him (when worked with him at the Confederation Of Zimbabwe Industries where he was the vice president then), he is a brilliant man – also demonstrated by his ability to see the persisting injustices and the need to correct them – who can chart out his vision of achieving social justice.
Mncumbatha Mfowethu,
I do not have a personal vendetta against Mutambara. Or let’s say even I have a personal vendetta, is what I am saying true or false. Or even if its false, is it not worth asking? We have different views of ideas about the possible approach to issues. So do not scandalise me when I merely express differing views and in the process interrogating Mutambara’s ideas. Wena khangela imicijo and attack those very points I make.
While its true that the neoliberal economics look as if its doing very well…in fact I always acknowledge that fact at every opportunity. But I use the phrase “spectacular creation of wealth”. However, you fail to consider the destruction and violence that it creates and also leaves behind in terms of poverty, overexploitation of resources, climate change, wrecked lives, all the bad things that you can think of. Remind me I show you books and papers that have well documented violence of neoliberal economics despite its spectacular creation of wealth”.
Well, I will say again that it’s none of your business who I support. If I support them, I expect you as a liberal to leave me alone and my choice (otherwise you become a hypocrite). Engage me in ideas and not whom I support. I have never and will never ask you about your affiliation. Keep it to yourself. The reason I harp on this point so much is because people use it to divert from the issues under discussion because they can’t offer solid points to argue their cases. It’s so easy to criticise ZPF or any other govt. for that matter.
I guess it depends on what you define as equal. Personally I believe there were crooks and corruption in some instances of the land reform (which is not govt policy), but by and large the land reform went on well. If you still believe that the land went to Mugabe and relatives only then you are difficult to debate with. It shows how out of touch you are with reality. So you suggest that if I said the land reform was not done right whilst I am in Canada then it would automatically make me in touch with reality? I have a problem with such logic! I am sure you understand that its self-serving. But of course self-serving is allowed. It only becomes bad when it clouds simple judgement.
Why do you think that I am not supposed to live in Canada if I support the land reform as you insinuate? Do you have the prerogative to tell people under what conditions and where they could live? A libertarian for that matter!!! The more you are sounding ruthlessly dictatorial.
If ZPF has been in power for too long, then go and vote them out as the people of towns have done and the people of Matabeleland. Simply vote them out. Yes, I truly accept that in principle, if you feel the party is not working for your good, you vote them out. But the tragedy is that a substantial number of its opponents is out of the country. In retrospect, I guess you are the one who is supposed to be going back home and not complaining while in the comfort of Canada. Who do you want to change the situation for you? Stop the tendency of being a free rider. You do not want ZPF, go and change them.
No, you are mistaken. The fishmongers are not part of the legitimate structures of the IMF and that’s why I used THUGS. They are a shadowy group of people, the sharks who do dirty jobs for their corporations and governments. You have to read THE CONFESSIONS OF AN ECONOMIC HITMAN by John Perkins to understand the operations of thugs such as the Fishmongers, which are a dark shadow of the IMF/World Bank/Western Corporations. Well, you also say a very general statement, which needs qualifying. Yes, the aid money has been given but it is not enough. However, the little that gets to the countries goes to the poor. However, it gets there when it is 22 in every dollar because of administrative apparatus and consultancy services. So I guess you need to familiarise yourself with international development politics. Well, you say you don’t know how the money was used but you went to school for free. Who do you think was paying for your subsidised education? The UZ graduates were not repaying their loans. The health system was developed, the police, the birth certificates, izthupha and all other public services. All this requires money to erect and maintain. Do you now how these institutions become when there is that money you take for granted. Poor public services are a result of lack of money.
People are not considered for debt relief not because they are an “illegal regime” Many “Illegal regimes” such as Surhato, Zaire and Pakistan have been given aid because they were in good books with the US and also for safeguarding US interests. At a formal level, debt relief can be considered if you allow your country to undertake economic structural adjustment programmes. I am not sure that even you are prepared for ESAP? You might surprise me!
The fact that you're a zany pf apologist matters coz in this thread you're promoting their policies and generally potraying them in good light. It is very HYPOCRITICAL of you to live in Canada far from the effects of the policies you wish n effect on others. Westerners generally love their countries that they dont shout praises thousands of miles away. They live with their own consequences. Dont talk about freedom n the like when your stupid party doesnt afford the same to its citizens. You claim land was equally/ fairly distributed : How come the majority of the land is occupied by harare/zanu pf denizens and our families are still packed like sardines in the former tribal trust lands. You're exactly the kind of people that destroyed our nation. Vanhu vakaenda kunight school (your ccosa) and corresponded like gono n mugabe. You masquerade as smart people n think you can hoodwink anyone??!! Ha!! Not a chance. The facts are clear as night n day. THe land distribution exercise is a DIASASTER. Try to spin it otherwise - I dare you
I'm prepared and will accept ESAP as long as it gets to be implemented by the likes of AGO Mutambara not a deranged communist like matibili. What do you vote zpf out of power? You're absolutely out of touch. The whole electoral machine is rigged as any sane person knows. The money that was loaned to Zim disappeared into the zpf patronage system. As far as I'm concerned my father paid more than enough money too see me through UZ in taxes - 70cents out of every dollar at certain instances. The fact that he lost his pension due to zpf will make up for the fact that i did not pay back any monies. Even if i wanted to (which i did not coz none of the ministers' children do pay back and they had jobs) I had no means to do so coz the idiots you support destroyed the economy. Prepare for a long career of criticizing the likes of AGO coz people of his ilk will rule Zim for a long time to come. Its already happened in other parts of Africa.
Gen. Pombiyadonha,
First, I did not say I am a ZPF apologist although I said if I was its non of anyone’s business just as much as you are someone’s apologist and I have not cared to find out or base my arguments on this. Rather, what are the issues put forward? We are talking about issues and not the virtues of ZPF or MDC per se. Don’t try to muddy the difference. If I am hypocritical by staying in Canada then you are guilty of being a free rider…complaining about ZPF and yet failing to go on the ground and make a change. But the struggle is not confined to “the ground”. One might fight the struggle from anywhere. I do not see why being in Canada should be hypocritical unless of course I said I hate Canada and wish I were not here and yet on the other hand vow not to live Canada. But I did not say that. It’s like you staying in Zimbabwe and then criticising its policies. Its normal. No one will criticise you for being hypocritical – staying in Zimbabwe and yet criticising it. That’s a democratic exercise. You are trying to argue something irrelevant. Argue issues. Is Mutambara’s policy sound? If yes why and if no, why not. These are the issues that we should discuss. It’s not being hypocritical that if I say they are not sound and being in Canada then I am hypocritical. I fail to see your logic.
As for your claims that “Westerners generally love their countries that they dont shout praises thousands of miles away”, sure they love their countries just like everyone else, but it is lies, pure lies that “they dont shout praises thousands of miles away”. Unless of course you are set on deceiving you will know that what you have said are pure lies that have undermined your credibility. Westerners are spread around the world and contribute to the debates in their countries. You see debating issues and providing differing views does not constitute hating your country. I think that’s what leads you to lie like this. Just pick any media and you will see that many nationals, both Western and non-Western participate in the country’s debate vigorously.
And you even make things worse for yourself by suggesting, “the majority of the land is occupied by harare/zanu pf denizens”. You are desperate and deceptive. That’s cheap propaganda that was discredited centuries ago. I am surprised that there are some people who have the temerity to argue along those lines.
If I was at CCOSA, then what of the fact that I am now at a day school where I did a 4 year course in 2 yrs and got a first class degree and was one of the top 200 students across Canadian universities (in 2005 and 2006) and now that I am doing a fully sponsored (based on my performance) Masters degree during the day, in one of Canada’ top universities – if that may satisfy you? I am interested to know what could be wrong with my education now? “You claim land was equally/ fairly distributed” – Show me where I made this claim in the manner you say it. You don’t need to lie or misrepresent to put across a point.
I don’t “masquerade as smart people”, but merely put forward my facts. You make us look smart by failing simple test - failing to substantiate your claims and instead making wild claims.
If the land reform is a disaster now, as you suggest, then it will be good one day. That should not be the reason why we should not have undertaken it. Besides, it was bound to be a disaster with all the sabotage going on such as the refusal by development institutions to fund Zimbabwe so that they put a squeeze it. But I hope next time you respond to respect facts and pay attention to your wild claims.
Well good that you prefer AGO to implement ESAP but you do not answer my questions on how he will solve the issues that I raise. Please do that as opposed to you and I debating outside of issues. You vote ZPF out of power in the manner of the constitutional referendum or the way the cities and Matabeleland have voted out. “The money that was loaned to Zim disappeared into the zpf patronage system” – what do you mean? Tell us which money loaned (you imply they are several) you are referring to.
You fail to understand that the tax base was small relative to the challenges and the number of the employed did not remit enough taxes to create sufficient funds to cover the majority who were not employed You are trapped in your microworld.
It does not matter if Mutambara rules. But you contradict yourself…how is Mutambara going to rule if, according to your claims “The whole electoral machine is rigged as any sane person knows”?
You imply that you had the desire to cheat the system of an education revolving fund because the minister’s children were getting away with it? So you are an accomplice in corruption and bringing Zimbabwe to its knees. You are probably not the right person coming out to seek social justice or claiming a high moral ground. Because it seems you are as bad as the system that you see! I should have devoted my time to engaging an irresponsible national! But I guess someone has to engage your ilk and expose their hypocrisy. It seems many Zimbabweans love being free riders…without an inch of conscience. You brag about it. It’s a shame!!!
I am sure you will admit that what you are doing is nothing but a charade. The reality is obvious to everyone about the terrible economic situation at home. All that is because of the previous and current regime whose agenda from the beginning was to strangle and destroy people’s lives. ZANU pf has never been about improvement of people’s livelihood; they have been interested over years in destroying every village that is opposed to it’s agenda.
The chaotic land reform program was initiated by Zanu pf just to fix the white community in the country for supporting the opposition. Lets remember that those white farms had an enormous influence on their worker and they did not hide their intention to oppose the 1999 referendum. According to my own understanding of things there were about 400 000 workers employed by white farmer -------- most of them could have voted for the opposition especially understanding that their jobs could be threatened once the government strips farmers of their land.
Well, it is my business to know who you support because l can spend the rest of the day trying to knock some sense into you but because of your beliefs and ideology ----- you will neither understand nor accept even a tiny fraction of things that are obvious and common sense to every Jack and Jill out there. It is imperative that l know even today we still have people in Zanu pf who believe that things are getting at home and Mugabe will do everything to fix the economy. If your mind is truly stark to something it is very hard for other people to rescue you because of ideological differences.
Even Bush(USA president) still believes that he made a right choice by attacking a defenseless country that had been under restrictive economic sanctions for over a decade. The whole world tried to stop him from going to war but he simply put plugs on his ears. I also realize that there are several people who have contributed in this discussion ---------- and out of all l haven’t seen one who is on your side. Every one thinks you are wrong ------- do you really think that could be a coincident? Yes mfowethu, you are free to chose who you support, but like l said it necessary for some of us to know that wasting time bringing a lot of reasonable fact that you will simply through in the dust bin of rubbish.
Personally, l believe that a strong govt dedicated in uplifting people’s lives should guard against “crooks and corruption” ------ like in some countries those who are guilty of practicing it should stripped of their positions. Not what we have witnessed over years where a corruption is found guilty and then pardoned by its head mafia(president). That goes to show that the president does not care about the country and its citizens. You can not pardon someone who is intent on grabbing all national resources for himself and his family. What is the meaning of nationhood if some people think they can destroy things or resources that belong to everybody? Are we to let those people go scout free simply because they belong to a party headed by a president?
I never said the land was hand over to “Mugabe and his relatives” but l am sure it would be accurate to say it was given to his cronies, some of whom are in the military, police force, public services employees, and some ignoramuses call the War Veterans. Now to the question of elections: first of all Zanu pf has created a system which makes impossible to run election equitable and efficiently. There has never been any fair election in the country ever since Zanu pf took over. Remember Magret Tongo was the first to expose this in the early 90s. You can not have an election which is predetermined from the get go--------so as you can see it will not take my vote to change the system Kuthula; everyone has to be involved. Just by saying, “simply vote them out,” you know it won’t work because of the set-up.
You say the little amount given to us goes to the poor? Which poor are you talking about? I know for a fact that the money gets squandered by Zanu pf thugs, and every one can testify to this. I was poor back home(still poor today),and from the village where l come from l never ( and l can bet with my precious soul) saw any villagers receiving assistance from the govt.
I never said you should not live in Canada. Everyone around the globe has the right to live anywhere they like, but l have an issue when you defend an infamous regime that is bent on suffocating its own citizens. All l wish is for you to go back home and experience the same hardships that people are going through everyday. I don’t think by the time you come back you will be sounding the same.
I tell what l never went to school for free. I remember vividly when some of us were sent back home because our parents did not pay fees. Not all of us benefited from free education. The purpose of taxation in any country is to make sure that the government provides the services that you mentioned. Zimbabwe’s tax (income or sales ) is one of the highest in the world. There is a long list of departments through which the govt procure money such tourism, mining, national companies, import (duty), govt farms or irrigation schemes etc. Where does all this money go to?
I will not admit to anything that is not of substance. Your first two paragraphs are typical of (my apologies) rumblings. What is the source of your arguments? I do not even know how to answer these. You have zeroed in on ZPF when we were talking about economic development issues. And I made it clear to you that I do not want to focus on ZPF, specifically knowing that some start going ballistic about ZPF this and ZPF that. And all the ballistics are based more on emotions and less on facts. You are merely expressing anger at ZPF and not sticking to facts and issues. Its difficult to engage such people mfowethu. You have completely taken me away from the thrust of my article to the ZPF debate. But anyways, I will oblige.
If we were to ask you to suspend your anger and articulate the economic development trajectory of Zimbabwe, would you be able to do so? This would be important because then it would show us that you understand what you are talking about. And emperical evidence will help otherwise your argument as it is, is very difficult to engage. And your “facts” are really hard to understand.
If you insist that you know my affiliation then I will oblige if that will help you engage me better. You said I was ZPF, but now I am telling you: I am neither ZPF nor MDC nor any party for that matter. I am persuaded by facts and pragmatism. If I may ask, what is your affiliation? Maybe it might help me too to understand you better. But if you are not comfortable telling me, then don't.
I do not need people on my side supporting my arguments. But even still, do you realise that these people who engage me have weak arguments that are always exposed all the time. Go to each and see the weak arguments, lies and deceprion. I wouldn't want people like on my side.
But also, I dislike discussing with people who agree with me. Those people who disagree with me are the ones I seek. If I could have it my way, I would have more of them because they extend my knowledge. John Start Mill said that even lies and false opinions are very important because they exyend knowledge. For instance, now we know that people lie or even when ultimately their lies become the truth, we know where they originate from.
People who always talk to each other and agree don't benefit much except creating a false comfort zone. When they finally meet people who disagree with them they get into a rage. What? How can you disagree wih me? All the people I talk with agree with me? You must be crazy!! That's not my style.
I think Mugabe's cronies, just like your cronies have the right to own land if they are Zimbabweans. So are the war veterans, the police, public service employees and ministers. I do not know why you are angry at fellow Zimbabweans for getting land.
Giving you the benefit of doubt that there is elections rigging, why do places like Harare and other cities defeating ZPF including where you are from eMatabeleland? You have not answered this point. How does ZPF fail to rig in these places, some which are strategic such as Matabeleland and Harare? Isaac Motongo disputed the election rigging issue.
One other thing I do not understand is that even among the MDC it is accepted that the party is weak and also we see it boycotting elections only to enter on the eleventh hour. Sure, how can such a party expect to win when you have a combination of lack of leadership and strategy on the one hand and not campaigning on the other?
Yes, it wont take your vote to change but you pretend as if it will take my action to change things. By I argue that with the right ideas you can do something. Go and help the individual efforts and change the system instead of spewing anger from Canada and then you will have the right to challenge me to come to Zimbabwe. Otherwise right now you are so hopelessly compromised to even try to utter anything along those lines, let alone think about it.
I do not remember saying that the little money we have goes to the poor. But even if I said that I mean the poor Zimbabweans in the form of subsidies, education, and many other public programmes. Can I ask something? Do you really have an understanding how a government functions? When we say government is redistributing wealth we are not saying that they are giving people US$40 000, rather they are investing the extra revenues into programmes like food relief, medicines such as ARVs, subsidising food and transport, etc. You see you are betting with your blood for things that you did not know were supplied by government. The schools were supplied by the government so are the health facilities, dipping facilities, maize during times of need, etc. Where do you come from so that I could better understand isigaba sakini?
Who said I was defending the “infamous regime”. I do not view the government as the infamous regime because it was selected by the people of Zimbabwe. I respect the choices the people of Zimbabwe make. The noise that is raised by people who have their own countries and those opposed to Mugabe is their own fault. Do not apply standards on us. If you and your friends see the government as infamous do not apply that to everyone. The same standards that you apply to me are the same I am demanding from you. Go back home and see whether the elections are rigged if you are going to mobilise people and vote. Hamba. Yini ndaba ufuna ukufaka amastandards to other people wena uwabalekela. Asihambe sonke.
You are now lying if you say you did not benefit from free education. When did you go to school? Which school was that? Even if we give you the benefit of doubt that you were paying fees, still your education was subsidised. You contest this because you did not see the government coming to your school with money to say “Nansi imali yalokhu lalokuya.
You are right about the purpose of tax but could you tell me what percentage of the population was paying tax? What amount of people were not paying tax? In Canada I think the triangle is inverted with about 80 percent of the people paying tax and about 20 % relying on the 80%. But in Zimbabwe it was opposite. How then does one sustain such a situation? Maybe my estimates are wrong and you could give me yours. Do you know that on top of that we have external debt.
I think you do not understand what its meant when people say that out taxes are one of the highest. Do you mean it in real or nominal terms? So what percentage of GNI is derived from these departments? You seem to suggest that we get a lot of money. To wash away my doubt it would be better if you gave us more figures than just sweeping statements.
There are some two comments about my going to CCOSA. Let me take out the doubt: I love CCOSA and am proud of what I got from there!!!
Its so strange that these very people who laugh at us (who went to night school) are themselves very uninformed yet very arrogant as clearly demonstrated in their arguments.
Its like this common saying by some urbanites that the people in the rural areas are ignorant. These urbanites claim to be knowledgeable. But general evidence is opposite. Some so-called urbanites who claim to be knowledgeable display some appalling ignorance. They even have the temerity to delve in areas they know little or absolutely nothing about. They refuse to read or do anything that would extend their perception of the world.
This is exactly like some of our friends who went to school during the day and got their wonderful degrees and yet they have scant knowledge of issues, especially approaching them from a multiperspectival viewpoint. Today's world requires such an approach especially these matters of public policy that we discuss. They do not want champions of insults or mockering.
The bad thing about ignorance is that you do not know that there are many more other things that you do not know. So someone like that will not see anything wrong in their ignorant position. There is little people can do except to engage them.
I love CCOSA and it will always remain dear to me!!! It gave me a foundation to life.
I would agree with you that Mutambara is a no-show. He has never impressed anyone from the word go. GDP does not translate to empowerment. SA has a growing economy but black people in the rural areas are not benefiting. We want the ordinary man to benefit not a few
All l did was to respond according to your statements and l don't remember myself trying to digress from the topic under discussion. Yes you were talking about economic issues but you can not debate economic issues without tying it to Zanu pf. The decline in the economics system all originates from that mafia organisation.
And l suppose l free to discuss anything that l think is worth discussing without anyone restraining me from doing so. So it means that if l feel the the economy if tied up to Zanu pf then so be it, thus how l see it. I shouldn't be forced to see it from your point of view.
The thing here Kuthula is that you sometimes deny things that you say. Don't you remember claiming the land was fairly distributed? How soon you forget!
Its true that you can't discuss economic issues without including ZPF. But my point is that for instance, while we may accept all your criticisms of ZPF, you have not told us, for instance whether Mutambara's economic policy is viable. I mean that you have not attacked my criticism of Mutambara that his view of empowerment merely based on growth in GDP is weak? I also argue about the role of the IMF in unleashing thugs. Again you did not answer that. So while your arguments indeed tie to ZPF, this was not the main forum for that discussion. The topic was confined to these issues. I have stated above. And I was hoping that you read my article carefully and engage me on these issues.
But of course I saw that you were not interested in engaging those issues and I nevertheless relented to your interests.
Now I am asking you to elaborate the economic development trajectory and use credible figures to pin down, beyond any reasonable doubt, your mafia organisation.
Its so easy to expose me if I run away from things that I would have said because I put them in print and can easily be retrieved from the past comments. I have done so with what I said about the land reform. Shame me if I have departed from what I said.
Verbatim, this is what I said about the land reform “I guess it depends on what you define as equal. Personally I believe there were crooks and corruption in some instances of the land reform (which is not govt policy), but by and large the land reform went on well”. While I acknowledge that the land reform was a success in terms of redistributing of land to the majority, I also concede that there were certain elements that were rogue. But, by and large, you would not disagree that land reform was undertaken successfully.
Thanks Killian you could not have with any better example than our next door neighbour SA. Rightly, we want to know how Mutambara thinks he is going to avoid that trap.
Dude I'm beginning to think all is not well in your head. You claim to approach a debate in a thoughtful manner but all you do is slinker around like a snake. You clearly stated in your blogs that the "land redistribution" (I call it an unmitigated disaster) had to be defended. You also state that since we failed in the current exercise did that mean we should not have done it? AN UNEQUIVOCAL YES. It was better to go along with the previous system until a superior reform format was at hand. No need to cut the nose to spite the face. Why do you assume someone should always be at hand to help you? zpf could have seized the land and awarded it to professional farmers and stuck to one man one farm and left the productive white farmers with one farm each. In your words it is okay for the country to go hungry as long as people like you get the satisfaction of doing something for the heck of it. The question precisely is WHO DIRECTLY BENEFITTED FROM THE LAND REDISTRIBUTION? DONT SAY ITS ZIMBABWEANS coz noone I know did and i know a hell lot of people. Those few that got farms simply stripped them of assets and abandoned them. So who benefitted on a sustainable scale?
Killian and Kuthula, canm you tell us how the 'successful'empowerment by the zpf govt has benefited our rural folk. Where I come from, all the people I know are still ploughing the same tired fields they have always since time immemorial. While high GDP does nottranslate to empowerment as in SA, careless land redistribution doesn't either as in ZIM. I am afraid the few industries still operating here in Zim face the same fate as the former commercial farms if the gvt goes ahead with its plans. What we will see soon are just shells of what used to be thriving industries.
Gen. Pombiyadonha,
Thank you that at least you can still engage me despite “ not well in [my] head”. I guess I still have some sense.
Yes the land reform has to be defended. I did not say we failed. Go back and read carefully. Or even cut and paste and show me where I say we failed in the land reform.
What do you mean by “ It was better to go along with the previous system until a superior reform format was at hand? What previous system do you mean? And why do you think that everyone else was comfortable with the status quo. Its you and your buddies. Many of us were not comfortable.
Well, we do not want to go with whatever “previous system” because we know it was not working. Everywhere around the world, if you read books on agricultural reforms, you will understand that there are no successes with your “previous system”. If you want us to reinvent it then, tough luck, we are not the ones who are going to do it. We leave it up to you to invent a system. So far the world has failed to conceive such a system. The Zimbabwean route has been very successful in pushing forward RADICAL land reforms. Maybe you might want to tell us what “system” you envisage. But its not too late. You can conceive it and then implement it in the second coming of the world!
You say, “In your words it is okay for the country to go hungry as long as people like you get the satisfaction of doing something for the heck of it”, why do you say that? Did I say that? Maybe I am disturbing you while you are discussing with yourself?? I can't answer something that you dream up. I will only respond when you put things in their proper perspective and not creating scenarios and then attempting to force them down my throat.
You say, “The question precisely is WHO DIRECTLY BENEFITTED FROM THE LAND REDISTRIBUTION? DONT SAY ITS ZIMBABWEANS coz noone I know did and i know a hell lot of people”. Well, it shows how out of touch with reality you are. Well about 150 000 people benefitted. The fact that you do not know anyone who benefitted from the land reform shows very well how very, very few people you know contrary to your grand claims. Are you sure that you have ever been to Zimbabwe or indeed you come from Zimbabwe?
Lizwe,
It empowered the rural folk by giving them land. Now they will not have to rely on some partenalistic urbanites who used to decide how and when they would allocate money to their rural folks. Now going into the future people are going to have land to grow their crops and participate in our agro-based economy. Secondly, govt. is now further empowering the rural folk through the indigenisation of businesses.
You say, “Where I come from, all the people I know are still ploughing the same tired fields they have always since time immemorial”. If there are people who have been planting the same fileds its unfortunate, but new fields and grazing land was opened up for the majority of people in the rural areas. But your claim that “many people” is deceptive because you might mean a few that you saw. The situation on the ground has changed for rural folks in terms of access to land. If you decide to bury your head in the sand then there is nothing we can do except to advise you to go to Zimbabwe beyond where you say “the many people”. You say, “While high GDP does not translate to empowerment as in SA, careless land redistribution doesn't either as in ZIM”. That's true, but the difference is that the land reform was not careless. It was radical and unavoidable. It is the only tried and tested method to effect meaningful land reform in the world. The empowerment and indigenisation should go ahead at full speed just as in Bolivia.
Kuthula,
With all of these comments attacking your position do you ever sit back and think maybe you should rethink your position?
Here is where you made the Canada/USA comparison
"If you did you would know that the Canadian economy has been recording good progress, one of the best among the industrialised countries. Noone asked you about capitalism. But even if you think capitalism work, why does 50million Americans without health insurance? Why are the ghettos still persisting, why is inequality so wide."
You state Canada's prosperity and contrast it the the persistance of ghettos in the USA. Is this not a comparison?
Land alone in not empowerment as you suggest and I quote
"It empowered the rural folk by giving them land. Now they will not have to rely on some partenalistic urbanites who used to decide how and when they would allocate money to their rural folks."
First of all most of these new farmers cannot access loans required for commercial farming, they have no access to foreign markets, they do not have the specialized knowledge to successfully engage in commercial. Giving a person a blog does not make them a writer just as giving a person land does not make them a farmer.
Transferring land was not the problem, the problem was giving people land in order for them to farm commercially without first empowering them with the knowledge and tools to do so. Now the whole country goes hungry due to this complete and utter disaster.
I am not afraid to say that it would have been better to allow those white Zimbabweans to continue farming while instigating some sort of apprentice program whereby said farmer would allocate a portion of his land to teaching black potential commercial farmers the ins and outs of the industry. Over time these newly knowledgable farmers could then be allocated land.
I see that in your response to me you accuse me of being a racist,
" yes your arguments are logically sound until you get racist or you begin lying for no apparent reason."
You may think anything I say is a lie but racist I cannot permit. I challenge you to look through any of my posts and paste in one racist comment. In fact I think it is you who are the racist. Refusing to view many whites in Zimbabwe as Zimbabwean is patently racist. unless of course they win a medal at the olympics then all of a sudden they are darlings of Zimbabwe. Black Americans fought for years to be given the respect and rights that come with being "American", I think it is hypocritical if we say that whites born and bred in Zimbabwe are not Zimbabwean. This is no longer on topic but maybe you should write an article on just who is a Zimbabwean and see what sort of response you get. Might be more interesting that your top 10 songs of the week. I fund it funny that a song never says on the charts from one week to the next.
The above comment is me, hit the button too quick.
Dave,
Its always good to hear from you. No I never think of backing off considering the weak and deceptive arguments presented. If they were sound I was not going to “sit back and think” but I would easily submit and surrender to convincing ideas.
What is the problem with US/Canada comparison?
“You state Canada's prosperity and contrast it the the persistance of ghettos in the USA. Is this not a comparison? “
Well, if it was, then I was responding to the guy who, despite his very limited knowledge (the kind of guys you want me to relent) tried to glorify the US.
Sure, land alone is not total empowerment but in its own right it is empowerment tool. In many instances, in fact it, alone has been empowering. When subsistance farmers have extra land or new fertile land they have increased their harvests or they have enlarged their grazing land. That's empowerment for me. I guess its your perspective of what constitutes empowerment. So in a way, giving land alone is indeed empowerment. Of course we can extend it to accommodate your definition. Of course, there are million issues that come into empowerment and of course I can't list them here. But the main vehicle of empowerment is land. You can give people land, they plant their maize (without buying Monstato seeds) and then reap wonderful grains.
You have already gone to commercial farmers. You always see $$$. I am talking about A1 type of farmers. Do you know what A1 farmers are?
It is not true that most farmers cannot access loans. Many do, but they are suffering under the teething problems. This is a transition period and very difficult one. It will come to pass. Loans are there but not enough. Land tenure will improve the lending of loans. This problem persists but it will pass. But why dont we hear you talking about those farmers who have excelled? I guess you have never heard of them? Who would dare report them in the so-called “international media”. Why dont you talk about villagers who have been decongested and given new lands for grazing and planting? That's empowering. When the rains come, they reap wonderful results but when it does not, even with technical knowledge, they reap nothingothing or little. This is not specific to Zimbabwe.
The government, with limited resources is giving extension services. The international development agencies will not do so since Zimbabwe is challenging the hegemonic structure.
“Giving a person a blog does not make them a writer just as giving a person land does not make them a farmer”. Once a person writes they become a writer. How do you define a writer? Once a person gets land and farm they become a farmer. The question is: what category of farming or writer? You common sense baffles me. See, I can't relent to such thinking.
There are so many considerations in the land reform other than just “first empowering them with the knowledge and tools to do so”. I am sure when the people of Zimbabwe said they wanted land they knew what they were getting themselves into. Its just like when they went to war, they knew that the racist and murderous regime of Smith would kill them but nevertheless they went and 50 000 of them paid the ultimate price. In any case its not the land reform that is causing hunger entirely, but the economic sanctions. I am sure if we had foreign currency we would augment the food deficit, but we have been squeezed so that we do not have money to do that and also keep the economy going. How do other countries without a sound agricultural base survive? Well, you might say Zimbabwe's economy is agro-based which is correct, but how do we account for loss of tourism? Why does the IMF and World Bank and other financial institutions refusing with funds or lines of credit? Its so very simplistic to suggest that land reform has caused hunger. How did other peple go hungry before the land reform? In fact, how do many people suffer from hunger around the world when we produce so much food that can go around and adequately feed everyone? Is it land reforms? In fact, Southern Africa has been experiencing hunger, was it because of non existent land reforms in these countries? I can't submit to such simplistic thinking even if 1000 people hold that view.
If the white farmers wanted to create the so-called apprentices they would have done so long ago because they knew pretty well that there was a pressing need for apprecntices and land reforms. The simple answer is that they did not want. It is a fertile figment of imagination to romanticise the smooth transfer of land en masse. Show me one example over the period of mankind where that happened. I hope you do not expect Zimbabwe to have been the first to come up with that magic formula. If you did, then tough luck! Maybe in the second coming of this world!
Just show me where I said white Zimbabweans are not Zimbabweans? THERE YOU LIE AGAIN. I insist that you are a racist. I want you to read this and wait for me to copy and paste all the racist remarks you made. I did not say the wordd, you did. By the way, books on racism say that racists take great exception in being labelled racists. They are very defensive. I will enjoy compiling a dossier of your racist remarks.
Well, I do not usually play the songs that I would have played the previous week. I have a large selection and I believe by playing different songs, that's how I can get to listen to all my songs. I have so many songs that I like very much and I hope that by the end of the year I would have played a substantial number. For instance, I had last played Slow Flow in 1999. What's your point about the top songs that rock me every week? Are you going to criticise me for choosing to listen and list my songs per week? Again, I can't submit to any idea that opposes this. But for interest sake I want to hear what you have to say.
I can't wait to see this list of racist remarks, I am quivering with anticipation.
Once again you contradict yourself in the same post, you should keep your posts shorter so that you can keep your ideas striaght. I will past in you quotes because unlike you I can back up my ascertions.
"You can give people land, they plant their maize (without buying Monstato seeds) and then reap wonderful grains.
You have already gone to commercial farmers. You always see $$$. I am talking about A1 type of farmers. Do you know what A1 farmers are?"
Firstly, when I talk about commerical farming obvioulsy there is a profit motive but the main purpose is to provide food for the millions of us in Zimbabwe who are not land owners and do not desire to farm, we still require flour, maize and produce. You cannot take land from a commercial farmer and expect an A1 farmer to produce the same amount of food. Maybe you have chosen to forget but our country was once known as the Bread basket of Africa because we produced enough food and grain that we could export to our neighbors. Now you are saying we need forex to succeed???? Today people cannot even afford to eat what was once a staple, even the poorest of poor in Zimbawe has memories of eating tea and bread with sun jam. Today have you tasted the bread? Even when you had very little you could be sure of at least offering your visitors this humble meal.
Land is not empowerment, just look at your own blog, you don't talk about what apartment you own or rent, you talk about your education because it is knowledge that empowers you to make use of the land or whatever raw material. I could give a zimbabwean a mine, are you suggesting he would know how to mine asbestos (one of our main exports) without first being empowered with some knowledge? Even you Kuthula must realize that your argument is foolish. To put the nail in this coffin I will give you one last illustration. If I gave a chef (A person empowered with the knowledge from a culinary school) the ingredients for a cake, and I gave you those same items are you suggesting you could make a cake. Of course not, knowledge is the real empowerment tool not just land.
You speak of A1 farmers who are flourishing??? I was home in 2006 and what I saw was disgusting, as a child we used to travel to Madziva which is beyond Mt. Darwin to visit my grandparents and I remember seeing fields full of maize and cotton, last year I saw this same area filled with weeds and only a small portion being farmed. This is not some report on the news, I was there and saw it with my own eyes. I do not care if you believe me or not but this is what is happening.
You further show you confusion with this comment
"In any case its not the land reform that is causing hunger entirely, but the economic sanctions. I am sure if we had foreign currency we would augment the food deficit"
The land reform is the reason we don't have more forex you fool. Tobbacco production is now a fraction of what it was thanks to the land reform. Where do you think Zimbabwe was getting it's forex from in the past?? Zimbabwe did not need forex to supplement it's food needs in the past, we exported food. Don't revise history here, let's rely on FACTS.
Of course the white farmers did not want to create apprentices (They didn't want to give up their land either but it happened), given the choice between having their lands totally confiscated and having an apprentice it's a no brainer which option a sane person would choose.
It is clear that with you I need to simplify everything, a person who can write is not a writer and by writer I am listing a profession. I make my own food but I don't call myself a chef, I write on your blog but I would not list my occupation as writer. You are confusing the ability to do something with actually doing it, a person who writes can be a writer, a person with land can be a farmer.
If you have heard of farmers that have excelled please talk about them so we can all be enlightened. I have not heard about them so I cannot speak about them.
Talking about world hunger is simply your tool of distracting from the real argument. Yes the world produces more than enough food but logistics are a limiting factor. No one is going to transport grain from Ohio to Ethiopia for free. We are talking about Zimbabwe, don't try to distract us with your flimsy arguments.
Seeing as you deny my allegation that you do not view white Zimbabweans as Zimbabweans I want to ask you a simple question.
Do you view a white person born in Harare in 1982 as a Zimbabwean with as much right to the bounty of the country of Zimbabwe as yourself?
Lastly why don't you lighten up. Whenever I insert a little humor into my posts you react so defensively. As if I care that you listen to different music every week. More power to you.
Dave,
Watch for this space by tomorrow morning or late tonight for your racist comments.
Dave,
I have just quoted Edward Said just to demonstrate some of the features that define racism and that which you have subjected me to. Interesting that your last posting you said this about me, “Once again you contradict yourself in the same post, you should keep your posts shorter so that you can keep your ideas striaght”. Look below what Edward Said stated.
Racism is very subtley expressed until we have a critical analysis we can fail to see or read racism.
Talbot et al. in their book called Language and Power in the Modern World state that the lexical and syntactical choices are common linguistic areas through which racism can be expressed. In your case you say “the strain caused by massive immigration on its health system”. You target immigrants alone although we know that the aging population is putting a strain on healthcare as well.
Talbott refers to the use of dysphemism as common in racist discourse. You referred to Africans as “beggars”.
Edward Said in his book “Orientalism” and quoting Sir Alfred Lyall says
“They [orientals] incapable of drawing the most obvious conclusions from any simple premises of which they admit the truth. Endeavor to elcit a plain statement of facts from any ordinary Egyptian. He will contradict himself half a dozen times before he has finished his stpry. He will break down under the mildest process of cross examination” – pp. 38.
Orientals…in everything oppose the clarity, directness, and nobility of the Anglo Saxon race, pp. 39.
In many of your postings, including the latest you portray me as such. “The land reform is the reason we don't have more forex you fool”. You portray me as an idiot but within the broader perception that you hold that I am an immigrant, beggar and average African who does not understand Eurocentricism.
May 29, 2007 10:51 PM
It is an even greater ignorance that see Zanu PF still garnering support throughout some areas of Zimbabwe .
June 5, 2007 3:53 AM
Now, I know that this way of working is a very Eurocentric way, and might seem foreign to the average African,
June 5, 2007 5:08 AM
Now, in logic, as with theories, you cannot simply say look there is sanctions, here is a serious decline in the economy, therefore sanctions caused the decline. It is like saying there is a blackman, here was some things stolen, therefore the blackman is a thief.
June 5, 2007 3:17 PM
this nonsense that the AU and SADC are somehow authorities on Zimbabwe elections is insane. Rather they are self serving despots…
June 15, 2007 3:35 AM
Keep on destroying your country, Kuthula, I don¢t care anymore. When the beggars come with impassionate pleas for aid to Zim, know that it will be ignored by me.
June 26, 2007 3:50 PM
Canada is currently having problems with dealing with the strain cause by massive immigration on its health system with some advocating a switch to the US system.
I can't keep my posts short beause I am not articulate in expressing myself in a few words. I prefer winding. Bear with me.
If the main purpose of farming is to provide food yes, the non commercial farmers will provide food for themselves when they grow it. Who told you that I could not make a cake? Your assumptions are dangerous. They have just confirmed my argument that you think the people do not have technical know how to farm.
While you are partly right to say knowledge is empowerment you are completely lost to think that people do not know anything. This is demonstrated by your preposterous example of a cake where you arbitrarily think that I cannot not bake a cake. Maybe I did not go to school but I have the knowledge obtained from friends, baking club etc.
You suggest that Land is empowerment. The problem is that you think the people have no technical know how. That’s not entirely true. They have always been contributing about 65% of the maize. Why would we then start doubting them now after the land reform?
Actually agricultural studies show that it’s a myth to think that only big commercial farms can produce enough food. Yes, we are now not a breadbasket but even Rhodesia did not attain that status overnight. This is a transition period. We shall overcome. Its so funny that these poorest of the poor you seem to sympathise with are happy about the land reform. Save your sympathy for your right wing friends. In fact, I was supposed to outline how right wingers practice racism. I will do so as we go on.
I do not know how old you are. And you don’t tell us why a small portion was not farmed in your travels. My cousin did not farm last year – into this year because of drought – not because he does not know how to farm. His plot is bare. So it might not be really that people are not able to farm but other circumstances. In those instances which some people are not farming because of laziness then its unfortunate. But its not the norm. On the contrary, I know many people who are successful A1 farmers…who flourish when there are rains. Don’t think what you saw is representative of Zimbabwe. Why do you want to make your knowledge representative of the country when you did not even go to Tsholotsho?
Who is growing the maize that we have now? Yes, there is a deficit but who is growing it? In 2004 when we had good rains and good harvests, didn’t the people FLOURISH?
Your stament that “The land reform is the reason we don't have more forex you fool” is only true to the extent that the West cut off forex supplies as a punishment for undertaking land reforms. So in that respect you are right.
You say “Zimbabwe did not need forex to supplement it's food needs in the past”. Well, either you don’t know or you are lying. Zimbabwe needed forex to buy food after our strategic grain reserves were sold in 1992 on the instructions of IMF. When the drought affected us the following two years, we had to scramble and get forex to buy food..at an even higher price than we sold our maize. Who is revising history here???
Very true, you need to very clear when you communicate. Now, as a journalist by training, am I a writer? See you say “[If] I write on your blog but I would not list my occupation as writer”. If we are asking for occupations (having specified), then you might be right. Buit here we did not specify. In fact, its very debateable what a writer is. I see a writer as someone who writes. A blogger is a writer who writes on blogs. Is there a profession called writer. Which school do people go to be a writer? Did Chomsky for instance go to a school of writing. He is a professor of linguistics who writes books in his spare time. I write blogs in my spare time and both are considered media. Who is a writer and who is not?
Gideon Gono, Herbert Murerwa. These guys are excelling in their farming activities.
“Talking about world hunger is simply your tool of distracting from the real argument. Yes the world produces more than enough food but logistics are a limiting factor. No one is going to transport grain from Ohio to Ethiopia for free. We are talking about Zimbabwe, don't try to distract us with your flimsy arguments”.
This is my topic for my Masters thesis. You simply are ignorant. You should just make sure you read more. I have a 10 000 words essay that I wrote that, to a great extent addresses this topic.
“Seeing as you deny my allegation that you do not view white Zimbabweans as Zimbabweans I want to ask you a simple question”. If I am denying, just copy and paste. Its easy to shame me.
“Do you view a white person born in Harare in 1982 as a Zimbabwean with as much right to the bounty of the country of Zimbabwe as yourself?”
Yes. Every one, even those from outside of Zimbabwe can share in the prosperity of Zimbabwe as long as they do not claim disproprtionately higher privilege and supremacy.
I do lighten up but even jokes and cartoons have serious ideological connotaions. So I can only lighten up when I have gotten to understand why you asked what you asked. If you do not care to know what I listen to why did you ask in the first place? There are no idle questions!
Dave, also take note of Prof. Hawkins' pronouncement on Zimbabwe's economic collapse. I hope to hear your views.
Don't insult him since you have developed a habit of insulting people you do not share similar opinion. Just engage his position.
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